Reid's review on colors of M10R vs. M11

[algrove]

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1 hour ago, M9reno said:

I re-subscribed to his site last week, after letting an earlier subscription lapse 7 years ago. There is much there, particularly stuff written since 2014, that is extremely interesting, but I find the article index somewhat of a lump of topics and thus not very user-friendly (still as I remember it from 2014).

Agree since he list his articles by latest at the top. It is a mishmash to find something, but worth it once you find what you're looking for.

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[Chaemono]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb elmars:

Yes, but it was fixed in the M10R in nearly the same way too (different to the "normal" M10/M10P).

Thank you. The question for me is, between the M10R and the M11, at the same WB and with the same profile in LR, which DNG needs fiddling to make the reds less magenta. It could be that the reds and the skin tones come out looking the same at the end, but in general I prefer that they are correct to begin with. Fiddling with color profiles in LR or even just making the reds less magenta may bear the risk that one messes up the other colors in the process. 

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, M9reno said:

The differences he notices in the M11’s output at its three different resolution settings is also quite interesting.

Overall it seems there’s little benefit to shooting at 18MP and that the sweet spot is 37MP? Wonder why that is though, I’d assume 18MP would offer more DR and better low light VS the other two settings (with the trade off of being smaller)

[algrove]

Understand not subscribing, but when you spend over $10k on a M camera and lens combination what's another $50 to learn how to better use your new tool.

Edited January 19, 2022 by algrove

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb tom0511:

My understanding and findings are that differences are much less/small than you suggest. And I go so far that at the moment not all differences are only in favor of the M11 (at the moment). The substantial differences in noise seems to be mainly at the very high ISO . 

You guys are going to make me borrow both cameras to see for myself. I gave the M10R back and don’t own an M11, but what struck me first when I saw M11 images, was how good the reds and the skin tones were, supposedly in untouched DNGs. Jono was the one who mentioned it and that immediate struck me as, ‘finally, they fixed it.’

[shirubadanieru]

Also, just talking about color…is it that important what the colors look on a sensor? I mean…if we shoot JPGs yes, like Fuji JPgs are awesome SOOC, so no need to retouch, but for Leica users, most of us shoot DNG I assume, so we get to make whatever colors we want out of the files, or just use a filter to replicate (or get closer) to film rendering that I also think a lot of Leica users enjoy (although I know a lot don’t either)…but to me color is the least relevant part of a sensor since all look good (and nowhere near as good as film), so at the end of the day I know I will retouch files to look less digital and more pastel / lower contrast / less saturation

[algrove]

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2 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

You guys are going to make me borrow both cameras to see for myself. I gave the M10R back and don’t own an M11, but what struck me first when I saw M11 images, was how good the reds and the skin tones were, supposedly in untouched DNGs. Jono was the one who mentioned it and that immediate struck me as, ‘finally, they fixed it.’

Fixed? That is all a personal assessment since we all see colors differently and on top of that today we use all kinds of monitors-some calibrated and some not, some new and some old.

I sadly came to this realization as my 32" monitor slowly had deteriorated to the point of not being useable for color, but OK for B&W, but only discovered it when I got this 16" MBP with its XDR screen. What a wake up call. So now this M11 is going to cost be a very expensive monitor upgrade-guess which one.

 

[algrove]

ased on what S.Reid posted , it should be no real surprises .  The M10r is a modern sensor with larger individual pixels than an M11 .  It would be strange if the smaller pixel sensor would have the better noise performance .  The difference will show up in the extra resolution of a 60MP capture verse an 40MP capture .  
r is a modern sensor with larger individual pixels than an M11 .  It would be strange if the smaller pixel sensor would have the better noise performance .  The difference will show up in the extra resolution of a 60MP capture verse an 40MP capture .  
on what S.Reid posted , it should be no real surprises .  The M10r is a modern sensor with larger individual pixels than an M11 .  It would be strange if the smaller pixel sensor would have the better noise performance .  The difference will show up in the extra resolution of a 60MP capture verse an 40MP capture .  

Edited January 19, 2022 by algrove
tried to delete

[jplomley]

Read it twice, and has confirmed my decision to stick with my M10-R (and M10-M) for street. I'll wait and see what the M12 offers up. In the meantime, hoping to see at least an 80 MP sensor in the SL3 to realize the full potential of the L Summicrons for landscape applications.

[John Smith]

30 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Thank you. The question for me is, between the M10R and the M11, at the same WB and with the same profile in LR, which DNG needs fiddling to make the reds less magenta. It could be that the reds and the skin tones come out looking the same at the end, but in general I prefer that they are correct to begin with. Fiddling with color profiles in LR or even just making the reds less magenta may bear the risk that one messes up the other colors in the process. 

The M10R uses the same sensor architecture as the S3. I know Leica said that it fine tuned the red channel for the S3. I don't know if it mentioned also fine tuning the channel for the M10R, but it would make sense that it did. If it makes any difference, Josh Lehrer said the S3 gets Ferrari red right. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by John Smith

[chriscove]

I am not a frequent poster but a frequent reader of this forum. I also subscribe to Reid’s site and I find it very helpful at times offering unique and consistent context. I am very interested in the M11 because it’s color output. Viewing the M10R and M11 images side by side I see a clear difference. I showed the images on Reid’s site to my wife who is not a photographer but has a great eye for color as a designer and she instantly chose the M11 colors over the M10R not knowing which came from which camera or me even telling why I was asking her. I am in love with the colors from the S 007 and S3 and I am hoping the M11 is closer to these than the SL2 or M10R. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by chriscove
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[elmars]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Chaemono:

Thank you. The question for me is, between the M10R and the M11, at the same WB and with the same profile in LR, which DNG needs fiddling to make the reds less magenta. It could be that the reds and the skin tones come out looking the same at the end, but in general I prefer that they are correct to begin with. Fiddling with color profiles in LR or even just making the reds less magenta may bear the risk that one messes up the other colors in the process. 

I see both cameras on par in this regard. I always corrected red an skin tones from M9, M262 and M10 but not from M10R and M11. Perhaps the M11 is a bit better because skin tones are a little bit more yellow (some would call it warmer).

[tom0511]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Chaemono:

You guys are going to make me borrow both cameras to see for myself. I gave the M10R back and don’t own an M11, but what struck me first when I saw M11 images, was how good the reds and the skin tones were, supposedly in untouched DNGs. Jono was the one who mentioned it and that immediate struck me as, ‘finally, they fixed it.’

Checking with own eyes is always a plus imo. A small diference for some might be a big difference for others.

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Minute schrieb chriscove:

I am not a frequent poster but a frequent reader of this forum. I also subscribe to Reid’s site and I find it very helpful at times offering unique and consistent context. I am very interested in the M11 because it’s color output. Viewing the M10R and M11 images side by side I see a clear difference. I showed the images on Reid’s site to by wife who is not a photographer but has a great eye for color as a designer and she instantly chose the M11 colors over the M10R not knowing which came form which camera or me even telling why I was asking her. I am in love with the colors from the S 007 and S3 and I am hoping the M11 is closer to these than the SL2 or M10R. 

I have an S3 and the M11 is like a mini version of it IMO, only in terms of tonal range, from what I’ve seen so far. It produces colors and skin tones in untouched DNGs that appeal and the reds look accurate. To my surprise, this wasn’t the case with the M10R files. Maybe I should just have moved the red hue slider a bit to the right in LR, but I gave the camera back for other reasons. The M11 files are not as punchy OOC as the S3’s, of course. Thank you and your wife for the feedback on Reid’s review. 

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, elmars said:

Yes, but it was fixed in the M10R in nearly the same way too (different to the "normal" M10/M10P).

Very much so. In Reid’s photo’s the differences are very hard to find, I’d rather say that the M11 photo’s are 1/10 shorter exposed, a tad darker. 

[chriscove]

36 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I have an S3 and the M11 is like a mini version of it IMO, only in terms of tonal range, from what I’ve seen so far. It produces colors and skin tones in untouched DNGs that appeal and the reds look accurate. To my surprise, this wasn’t the case with the M10R files. Maybe I should just have moved the red hue slider a bit to the right in LR, but I gave the camera back for other reasons. The M11 files are not as punchy OOC as the S3’s, of course. Thank you and your wife for the feedback on Reid’s review. 

That is very good information. This helps a lot. 

[Chaemono]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb chriscove:

That is very good information. This helps a lot. 

Take a look at the ochre-colored tone on the wall at 44:02 here:

 

 

[orcinus]

11 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Take a look at the ochre-colored tone on the wall at 44:02 here:

In that shot, and many others, it looks (to me) like OOTC browns in general have too much of a green shift, causing them to look too muddy. Especially the deeper the shadows are.

This is not uncommon in all cameras to some degree, as technically, green filtered photosites *are* 2x the number of B and R, and so have the highest SNR, and when you compensate for it, you draw in more red noise into the shadows.

Leicas current M11 profiles appear (to me) to have opted for a very conservative approach in those areas.

It’s easily fixed, though - Color Balance in Photoshop + bump up shadow magenta content a smidge. I do that all the time for my Nikons too.

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[rob_w]

4 hours ago, UliWer said:

Well, if I read a book or a newspaper I have to pay for I shall not quote it by copy and paste or plagiarize it  but I am not forbidden to talk about the content. Otherwise mankind would have stayed illiterate. 

Sorry Uli.  I have to disagree with you here.  Not with your statement about sharing opinions, but what you did next, which was to summarise the actual content for non-subscribers anyway.  In my view, Sean offers his site as a subscription so he can make a living.  He asks us not to reproduce content and offers the service on that basis.  I respect his wishes.  I have a choice not to subscribe if I do not agree with them.

Secondly, I don't think your summary is incorrect in several respects.  I just read the review this morning and came to a different conclusion.  So I would advise anyone who has not read it, not to react to your summary.  Better to subscribe and read the real thing.  It's only 30 bucks or so, for heaven's sake!

No offence to anyone.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by rob_w

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, chriscove said:

...I am in love with the colors from the S 007 and S3 and I am hoping the M11 is closer to these than the SL2 or M10R. 

The M10-R sensor is a cut-down version of the S3 sensor, so the differences are the C1/LR profiles, the incredible S lenses, and the sizes of the sensors. The S3 sensor is older technology (FSI) while the M11 is newer (BSI). Likely the S4 will be a scaled up version of the M11 sensor, the same sensor used in the GFX 100/100S.