Stefan Daniels' SL2 Video

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4 hours ago, SrMi said:

Do you mean in production?

IMO your question is tied to the question "Will there be a Leica company in 2030." I believe so.

I believe leica will be here in 2030 but i do wonder about the L mount alliance and if the SL camera series will still be around then? 

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[Simone_DF]

12 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

I believe leica will be here in 2030 but i do wonder about the L mount alliance and if the SL camera series will still be around then? 

Panasonic managed to grab only about 5% or less of market share with their full frame S1/S5 lines. I have no idea if they are profitable or not, but the S5 is only about 1500€, usually when prices are so low, you rely on high number of sales, not just 5%, and the fact that the S1R got discontinued after only 2 years is not a good sign. 

The next iterations or two will be the deciding ones for the future of the L mount. 

[panoreserve]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb steve 1959:

I believe leica will be here in 2030 but i do wonder about the L mount alliance and if the SL camera series will still be around then? 

Hopefully! As a Leica user since 1990 I have to state that the SL system (which I use solely since 2016) is by far the best Leica has ever made - esp. the SL2 with Apo L-primes...

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

the fact that the S1R got discontinued after only 2 years is not a good sign

I missed that announcement. Apparently so did B&H, and the other major retailers that I checked.

I'm sure there's a replacement on its way. The S1R was announced over 3 years ago, which is a long time for a mainstream digital camera. I expect that the next version will have a few more megapixels, and 1 stop more low-light sensitivity, because that's what always happens.

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Panasonic managed to grab only about 5% or less of market share with their full frame S1/S5 lines. I have no idea if they are profitable or not, but the S5 is only about 1500€, usually when prices are so low, you rely on high number of sales, not just 5%, and the fact that the S1R got discontinued after only 2 years is not a good sign. 

The next iterations or two will be the deciding ones for the future of the L mount. 

Can you provide the source for your claim that S1R is discontinued? It is still available for purchase on Panasonic's site. 
Sometimes online sites mistakenly put a discontinued sign for cameras. It happened with B&H a couple of times, and apparently, WEX marked S1R as discontinued in May 2020. Ten months ago, some NY stores claimed that SL2 was discontinued.

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Can you provide the source for your claim that S1R is discontinued? It is still available for purchase on Panasonic's site. 
Sometimes online sites mistakenly put a discontinued sign for cameras. It happened with B&H a couple of times, and apparently, WEX marked S1R as discontinued in May 2020. Ten months ago, some NY stores claimed that SL2 was discontinued.

Wex is still marking it as discontinued. On both B&H and Adorama is set as "special order", which usually mean they'll try to source leftovers

[Michael Markey]

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Unless they up their game re sensor technology they`re only going to appeal to a minority market with the SL camera line .

That may be sufficient though .

Without knowing what their projections were its difficult to draw a conclusion.

I don`t think they`ll be around in 2030 though .

There maybe something else to replace it which will take the L mount lenses via an adapter viz the R adapter L .

[eab]

i struggle with the SL2, I really love the simplicity of the interface and shooting experience,  and the images with the SL lenses I think look great.  I have two issues, the overall weight of the combined camera and lenses and the autofocus.  I can live with the weight for now but the autofocus is a problem.  My wife and I spend a fair amount of time traveling, we spend time in cities, and off the grid for days at a time.  So i don’t have any specific genre that I photograph, sometimes it is people, animals, landscape, etc.  On our last trip i brought my M10R and a Sony A1.  I would love to bring the SL2 but I dont have any really good long lenses and I know I will not be able to use it for sports or wildlife and have the same results as I do with the A1. It seems to me, that until they move to a PDAF they will not be able to continue to move forward.  I would love to be able to leave home with the M and SL and know that I am prepared for what ever the day will bring.  

[Michael Markey]

6 hours ago, eab said:

i struggle with the SL2, I really love the simplicity of the interface and shooting experience,  and the images with the SL lenses I think look great.  I have two issues, the overall weight of the combined camera and lenses and the autofocus.  I can live with the weight for now but the autofocus is a problem.  My wife and I spend a fair amount of time traveling, we spend time in cities, and off the grid for days at a time.  So i don’t have any specific genre that I photograph, sometimes it is people, animals, landscape, etc.  On our last trip i brought my M10R and a Sony A1.  I would love to bring the SL2 but I dont have any really good long lenses and I know I will not be able to use it for sports or wildlife and have the same results as I do with the A1. It seems to me, that until they move to a PDAF they will not be able to continue to move forward.  I would love to be able to leave home with the M and SL and know that I am prepared for what ever the day will bring.  

Your right and you`re not on your own .

The poor af is a common complaint on the SL forums .

Not to put too finer point on it its bloody hopeless when things start moving .

Can`t grab focus quick enough and even if it does it can`t maintain it .

Trawl the net and most shots are Scenic`s ,sunsets ,still life and portraits .

There`s a reason for that .

I`m out again today but I`m reverting to manual focus as I once did with my M`s ... so I`ll miss shots 

Unless they redesign their sensor technology I don`t think it will gain mass appeal , its just so far behind the competition.

I think that`s the reason for the promotion boost and attractive trade in offers .

Shame because in other respects its a great camera .... well designed ..... great colour science .

My expenditure on the system is on hold  until I decide what to do .

I only have one prime lens anyway ...other wise I`m using my existing M lenses or TL lenses (although the odd cheap Sigma lens may interest me  ).

PS  the weight doesn`t bother me although I don`t think that its necessary in todays camera bodies . 

 

 

 

[BernardC]

18 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Wex is still marking it as discontinued. On both B&H and Adorama is set as "special order", which usually mean they'll try to source leftovers

Everyone knows that the camera near end-of-life. That's what happens with a 3-year-old digicam. I'm sure a replacement will be announced soon, and Panasonic has stated that they are working on a new generation of cameras. There were multiple interviews with Panasonic execs a few months ago.

I don't buy the whole "sky is falling" attitude. For one thing, Panasonic has released a good number of high-quality L-Mount lenses recently, more-so than Canon, Nikon, Sony. Granted, the whole industry is in flux, so no brand is safe. I think that Leica and Canon are the only two brands that are very likely to still be selling cameras in 10 years, but who knows what their lineup will look like? Everyone else is marginal, especially Sony who have a long history of dropping unprofitable product segments.

[LBJ2]

On 12/4/2021 at 8:37 AM, Michael Markey said:

Your right and you`re not on your own .

The poor af is a common complaint on the SL forums .

Not to put too finer point on it its bloody hopeless when things start moving .

Can`t grab focus quick enough and even if it does it can`t maintain it .

Trawl the net and most shots are Scenic`s ,sunsets ,still life and portraits .

There`s a reason for that .

I`m out again today but I`m reverting to manual focus as I once did with my M`s ... so I`ll miss shots 

Unless they redesign their sensor technology I don`t think it will gain mass appeal , its just so far behind the competition.

I think that`s the reason for the promotion boost and attractive trade in offers .

Shame because in other respects its a great camera .... well designed ..... great colour science .

My expenditure on the system is on hold  until I decide what to do .

I only have one prime lens anyway ...other wise I`m using my existing M lenses or TL lenses (although the odd cheap Sigma lens may interest me  ).

PS  the weight doesn`t bother me although I don`t think that its necessary in todays camera bodies . 

 

 

 

 

On 12/4/2021 at 1:47 AM, eab said:

i struggle with the SL2, I really love the simplicity of the interface and shooting experience,  and the images with the SL lenses I think look great.  I have two issues, the overall weight of the combined camera and lenses and the autofocus.  I can live with the weight for now but the autofocus is a problem.  My wife and I spend a fair amount of time traveling, we spend time in cities, and off the grid for days at a time.  So i don’t have any specific genre that I photograph, sometimes it is people, animals, landscape, etc.  On our last trip i brought my M10R and a Sony A1.  I would love to bring the SL2 but I dont have any really good long lenses and I know I will not be able to use it for sports or wildlife and have the same results as I do with the A1. It seems to me, that until they move to a PDAF they will not be able to continue to move forward.  I would love to be able to leave home with the M and SL and know that I am prepared for what ever the day will bring.  

I don't know what to think when I read how some struggle with SL2 AF system at the level described above. I use the SL2 for moving subjects on a regular basis. The DFD/CDAF technology can be very accurate and consistent for moving targets too. It is not on the level of the very fast sensor readout and super sonic PDAF of my other camera, the Sony A1 or the Canon R5 for instance, but IMO if someone can't focus most subjects reliably w/ SL2/S, its not the fault of the SL2 or SL2-S.

Personally, I did have to put in time and practice to learn how to use the SL2. I even pushed the SL2 for very fast moving targets which I wouldn't expect to do with this camera. But I did want to stress test to see what it can do if I needed.

Weaknesses of CDAF include false positives with low light or heavy back lite scenes aka CDAF needs some level of contrast in the scene . I've experienced this with the SL2 but know to avoid heavy back lite for AF scenarios. The AF-C EVF wobble is another problem visually. But I learned to ignore and push through the wobble in the EVF which ultimately resulted in very sharp AF positives once I viewed in post.

My SL2 roller coaster cart AF-C burst test here. I discovered very high hit rates in post:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1718668/0#15707151

[Kim Dahl]

I'm sorry to say but a rolling carousel is not a moving motif.  If you have focused on just that place on the carousel, the focus should not "follow".  Then you just have to make sure that the closing time is high.  Try following a football player on AFC with a Leica and you will see problems.  Not that there can be a sharp image but only a few will be sharp.  Compared to the Canon R - Sony and the "old" dslr Nikon and Canon. I know.  I work with photojournalism on a daily basis.J Leica is amazing in many other ways.  But not action.

[LBJ2]

23 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

I'm sorry to say but a rolling carousel is not a moving motif.  If you have focused on just that place on the carousel, the focus should not "follow".  Then you just have to make sure that the closing time is high.  Try following a football player on AFC with a Leica and you will see problems.  Not that there can be a sharp image but only a few will be sharp.  Compared to the Canon R - Sony and the "old" dslr Nikon and Canon. I know.  I work with photojournalism on a daily basis.J Leica is amazing in many other ways.  But not action.

I posted an extreme example but I did use AF-C tracking for this test. You can see the bursts shots are all in focus too. I have several of these bursts scenarios, all in focus using SL2 AF tracking. There are more well known appropriate choices for your stated football player scenario, like the Sony A1, Canon R3 or Nikon Z9. That's what these cameras are designed to do. 

I have plenty of high hit rate event shots with performers signing, dancing, jumping etc with the SL2 too, never mind the normal travel, family, pets, landscape, children, portraits etc which the SL2 is very capable and consistent.

I am not pushing the SL2 as a performance camera on the level of the A1, R3, R5, etc. But for every day use to include moving subjects, if someone can't get consistent AF with the SL2, it's not the camera. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by LBJ2

[Kim Dahl]

Totally agree.  That is exactly my point.  Let's tell new users (Leica) what the different systems are good for.  Leica SL is not for professional football or handball.  (I have never seen a photographer for a professional football match with Leica SL) Everyone uses Nikon, Canon and Sony - here in Denmark at least.  If you want to photograph the children's football game and it is not important that all pictures are sharp (every time) then Leica SL is ok.  Leica are world champions in beautiful colors.  That SL (and CL) are really good for Leica Mount.  It's not to talk Leica SL down but just to be totally honest where Leica has its strengths.

[LBJ2]

1 minute ago, Kim Dahl said:

Totally agree.  That is exactly my point.  Let's tell new users (Leica) what the different systems are good for.  Leica SL is not for professional football or handball.  (I have never seen a photographer for a professional football match with Leica SL) Everyone uses Nikon, Canon and Sony - here in Denmark at least.  If you want to photograph the children's football game and it is not important that all pictures are sharp (every time) then Leica SL is ok.  Leica are world champions in beautiful colors.  That SL (and CL) are really good for Leica Mount.  It's not to talk Leica SL down but just to be totally honest where Leica has its strengths.

Yes. I thought I was clear when I wrote the same in my first post. "The DFD/CDAF technology can be very accurate and consistent for moving targets too. It is not on the level of the very fast sensor readout and super sonic PDAF of my other camera, the Sony A1 or the Canon R5 for instance, but IMO if someone can't focus most subjects reliably w/ SL2/S, its not the fault of the SL2 or SL2-S."

[John Smith]

Leica puts out a video touting its camera system and all the forum wants to do is talk about the system's demise.

[LocalHero1953]

48 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Yes. I thought I was clear when I wrote the same in my first post. "The DFD/CDAF technology can be very accurate and consistent for moving targets too. It is not on the level of the very fast sensor readout and super sonic PDAF of my other camera, the Sony A1 or the Canon R5 for instance, but IMO if someone can't focus most subjects reliably w/ SL2/S, its not the fault of the SL2 or SL2-S."

Clearly there are people who have problems with the SL series and autofocus for action, but equally clearly there are people who do not (including myself).

[Michael Markey]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

Yes. I thought I was clear when I wrote the same in my first post. "The DFD/CDAF technology can be very accurate and consistent for moving targets too. It is not on the level of the very fast sensor readout and super sonic PDAF of my other camera, the Sony A1 or the Canon R5 for instance, but IMO if someone can't focus most subjects reliably w/ SL2/S, its not the fault of the SL2 or SL2-S."

Lets be honest here , I chose the wrong camera for the Job .

It`s not a matter of not being able to focus properly .

I`ve been doing this for 27 years with Leica M ,Sony A series and Canon DSLR`s

"Its not on the level of my other camera .The Sony A1 or Canon R5 " .

No it isn`t but  I expected it to be and think it should be  for the price .

I prefer the camera in every other aspect and it frustrates me that they built it with a sub optimal AF system.

 

The link to the video is because of my feeling that they are having to push it because it isn`t selling in the numbers they expected it to due to poor AF (in comparison to other makes).

Making it a poor value proposition in the public`s eyes. 

Love mine but like you I need another camera to do the weekend work .

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Michael Markey

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[LBJ2]

5 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Clearly there are people who have problems with the SL series and autofocus for action, but equally clearly there are people who do not (including myself).

All too familiar, I can't remember how many times I read I shouldn't be able to use a rangefinder to capture movement or focus moving targets at 0,95 too. Even to this day! I guess I'm just the sort of madman to learn, practice, then apply how to get what I want out of the cameras I chose to buy and use and that's before the real work begins.

[Michael Markey]

2 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

All too familiar, I can't remember how many times I read I shouldn't be able to use a rangefinder to capture movement or focus moving targets at 0,95 too. Even to this day! I guess I'm just the sort of madman to learn, practice, then apply how to get what I want out of the cameras I chose to buy and use and that's before the real work begins.

Shot the same stuff with my M3 dw and M2 for over twenty years .... no problem but AF widens your scope and presents you with different opportunities.

That aside I`m going back to manual focusing with the SL2S .... my point is I shouldn`t have to when they are perfectly competent AF systems on the market which I wrongly thought would be spec`d in .

You yourself have the Sony AI presumably to do the stuff the SL can`t and I`m going to have to do something similar .

Back to the point .... all I`m saying is Panasonic should have spec`d it better then it would have been more competitive.

I didn`t intend to turn it into a contest as to who can focus better with a rangefinder .... we can all do that .

I certainly can ... and did