Couple of questions about the bakelite lens cases...

[willeica]

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16 hours ago, UliWer said:

 

There is a german list "Leica Zubehör" (Leica accessories) from 1940 (Liste Photo Nr. 7335 f.) which mentions the "Bakelitdosen" on p. 17 with the codewords Bcdoo, Bksoo, Bdfoo I quoted in #9, but none for the 13.5cm Hektor. Whilst the 7.3cm Hektor and the 9cm Thambar had their own leather containers, they had none in bakelit. 

The same list from 1937 (Liste Photo Nr. 7335 d) does not mention them at all. 

So it seems that they were introduced only during the war (or perhaps shortly before it), perhaps only in Germany, and probably not during the whole wartime. Bakelit was a rather expensive plastic and I doubt that it could be used for "civilian" purposes during wartime.  

Whilst the pricelist from march 1951 still has all of them, the next list from April 1952 only mentions the "Bakelitdose" BDOOZ for the 13.5cm Hektor, which also disappeared in the catalogue from 1954. For all shorter lenses the list from 1952 only mentions the new transparent "Polystyrol-Objektivbüchsen"  (BOORW, BOOSK and BOOPV) .

So the scarcity of the bakelit containers may be explained by the short time of approx. a dozen years when they were offered by Leitz, and even this short span may have had a large gap during wartime and perhaps the very first years after the war.

Thanks, Uliwer. This more or less explains everything , including the scarcity of these items. I have never come across any of those bakelite keepers in British catalogues, just the leather cases. I have always felt that the transparent items were post-war and your findings confirm that. I have seen the bakelite items in black and brown. The only item I have seen in red is a little bakelite box for a folding flash. That item is definitely post war.

William 

[FPangrazi]

Only two bakilite containers in April 1939 (german list "Leica Zubehör"  7335e)

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[willeica]

I have heard from Jim Lager as follows:

"I have looked into the bakelite cases and cannot find a statement saying the lens came with the case. 

The individual cases in most cases have a specific codeword assigned."

I have shared with him the information which UliWer and FPangrazi have supplied here and he is going to look into the matter further. Jim has a lot of material which he has acquired over many years, but he may not have catalogue material which was apparently only used in Germany during and before and after WWII .

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

On 11/4/2021 at 6:08 PM, UliWer said:

The Leitz pricelist from March 15th 1951 still lists the "Bakelitdosen":

BCDOO for Hektor 2.8cm and Elmar 3.5cm.           DM 1.20

BFKOO for Summaron 3.5cm                                    DM 1.50

BKSOO for Elmar 5cm and Summitar 5cm             DM 1.50

BCOOA for Summarit 5cm                                         DM 1.50

BDFOO for Elmar 9cm                                                 DM 2.00

BDOOZ for Hektor 13.5cm                                          DM 3.00

The Leitz Catalog from April 1954 does not list them any more but only the transparent "Objektivbüchse aus Polystyrol" (BOORW for 2.8 and 3.5cm lenses as well as for 5cm Elmar, BOOSK for other 5cm lenses; BOOPV for 9cm Elmar and BDOOZ for 13.5cm Hektor).

I think the bakelit containers were delivered with the lenses, as I do not find them in a catologue from 1936 and the post war catalagues list them as "Ersatz", which means you could buy them as a subtitute if you lost one.  But I am not completely sure since there were also red containers made of carton which were certainly delivered with pre-war lenses (though it makes sense to assume that they preceded the bakelit containers, as Luigi luigi stated). The later transparent containers were delivered with the lenses and you could buy them as substitutes.

 

As happens when we try to go in depth on some argument, little collateral oddities do emerge 😎 : the pricelist you quote is clear and consistent with what we have seen : Hektor+Elmar 35 had their own bakelite case, Summaron its own  (and I'm dure on the flash they ARE different... my BCDOO can not accomodate a Summaron).

But look at the post of Fabrizio Pangrazi in 2016 (#17) https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/256058-leitz-tropical-aluminum-lens-cases/#comments .. a french catalog,

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- or an error... or BCDOO had 2 versions... I don't want to spend too much time on the matter with another search...  😉but I have the feel to have seen the picture of a short bakelite box WITHOUT lens' specification on the back... BCDOO and BFKOO had it, maybe 3 were too many and they made this "unified" BCDOO without) 

 

Let's see if Jim Lager has some info on the matter ; when he worked at Leitz NY he surely did know how a lens was packed when delivered... but I suspect they weren't anymore the times of the bakelites... 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[UliWer]

I looked again at my pricelists from 1951. I have two of them, both looking different even though they are both dated from 15.03.1951:

The first one (or ist it the second?) lists the BCDOO for the Hektor and the 3.5cm Elmar and the BFKOO for the 3.5cm Summaron. The BCDOO was 1.20 DM, the BFKOO 1,50 DM.

The second (or is it the first?) lists the BCDOO for the Hektor, the 3.5cm Elmar and the Summaron and omits the BFKOO. The price was the same (1.20 DM)

The next list from 1952 does not list  the "Bakelitdosen" any more for lenses shorter than the 13.5cm Hektor but only the "Polystyroldosen".

Unfortunately I have no list from 1950. The newsletter for Leica retailers in Germany from February 1950 announced that only a few new Summarons could be delivered since  the beginning of the year to customers in Germany, though they were delivered abroad. 

If the entry for a BFKOO for the Summaron - with its own price! - was not just an error in one of the lists from 1951, it looks as if this bakelit container is a real Leica rarity. If it was produced and delivered at all, it seems that its time span was limited to one year or perhaps some months longer. 

Perhaps you have found the new star for the next Leica auction...

P.S.: The BFKOO for the Summaron only exists: https://www.ebay.de/itm/124857988059?hash=item1d121db3db:g:b0QAAOSw9cthG~Cb

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by UliWer

[willeica]

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

a french catalog,

Well spotted, Luigi. I still have not seen anything in British literature, but now you are tempting to pull out the boxes of 

A lot has emerged on this thread which is not in the existing literature.

The main conclusion seems to be that the bakelite containers are genuine rarities and some are more rare than others. I have not seen any evidence so far that lenses were delivered in the bakelite containers.  Then there are the clear polystyrene keepers, which I believe were gone by the mid 1970s. Were they used for delivery? 

William 

[UliWer]

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4 minutes ago, willeica said:

Then there are the clear polystyrene keepers, which I believe were gone by the mid 1970s. Were they used for delivery? 

 

Yes, the German brochure "Leica Objektive" from March 1954 says: "All Leica lenses are delivered in transparent plastic containers which provide protection against dust and mechanical blessures. At the same time there are containers in brown leather available."

Has anybody ever seen the transparent plastic containes for the large lenses like the Telyts, the Hektor 12.5cm or even the Summarex? 

 

[luigi bertolotti]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

Yes, the German brochure "Leica Objektive" from March 1954 says: "All Leica lenses are delivered in transparent plastic containers which provide protection against dust and mechanical blessures. At the same time there are containers in brown leather available."

Has anybody ever seen the transparent plastic containes for the large lenses like the Telyts, the Hektor 12.5cm or even the Summarex? 

 

Good question 😎... I did not, but am sure to have seen Telyts (200 and 400) and Hektors 12,5  offered for sale in the attractive form of "with original box"  and the box did not include any transparent plastic container : same for Summicron 90, btw. Don't remember to have seen a Summarex sold "with original box"... but a catalog of '58, with the list of spare plastic containers, does not quote one for the Summarex.  (so the phrase "ALL Leica lenses are delivered..." is of questionable precision 😁)

[luigi bertolotti]

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

I looked again at my pricelists from 1951. I have two of them, both looking different even though they are both dated from 15.03.1951:

The first one (or ist it the second?) lists the BCDOO for the Hektor and the 3.5cm Elmar and the BFKOO for the 3.5cm Summaron. The BCDOO was 1.20 DM, the BFKOO 1,50 DM.

The second (or is it the first?) lists the BCDOO for the Hektor, the 3.5cm Elmar and the Summaron and omits the BFKOO. The price was the same (1.20 DM)

The next list from 1952 does not list  the "Bakelitdosen" any more for lenses shorter than the 13.5cm Hektor but only the "Polystyroldosen".

Unfortunately I have no list from 1950. The newsletter for Leica retailers in Germany from February 1950 announced that only a few new Summarons could be delivered since  the beginning of the year to customers in Germany, though they were delivered abroad. 

If the entry for a BFKOO for the Summaron - with its own price! - was not just an error in one of the lists from 1951, it looks as if this bakelit container is a real Leica rarity. If it was produced and delivered at all, it seems that its time span was limited to one year or perhaps some months longer. 

Perhaps you have found the new star for the next Leica auction...

P.S.: The BFKOO for the Summaron only exists: https://www.ebay.de/itm/124857988059?hash=item1d121db3db:g:b0QAAOSw9cthG~Cb

 

Alan Mc Fall and JC Braconi maybe can be of help  :

- As you say BFKOO surely exists, and it has the proper writing... see your ebay link and also the item for sale by Peter Loy (post #3)

- JC (post #7) displays a container that can be a BFKOO (2nd from right, though with an Elmar 3,5 in front 😉) : JC, has it the writing on the back ?

- Alan (post #28 at https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/256058-leitz-tropical-aluminum-lens-cases/#comments ) displays a series of bakelite containers... but in the picture at right (all the back parts of them) the one for Summaron SEEMS not to have a writing !! Picture is far from perfect (sorry, Alan... 😉), but I can't read anything, differently from the others... is it the rare "universal" BCDOO for 3 lenses ? 

("rare" because Summaron appeared in 1949... BFKOO together with, by logic... and endured to 1951 - as for your catalog - but same year apparently they started to make the "universal" BCDOO... but - always for your catalog - in 1952 it didn't exist anymore) 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[alan mcfall]

Sorry for the photo from 2016 post that was not clear. All my bakelite containers have lens lettering on the bottom, none are blank. This photo shows the 35 Summaron(s) surrounding the 50 Summarit (BCOOA), all would be well post war, I believe.  I can't recall ever seeing a black bakelite case for the Xenon or 200 telyt.  I guess 73 Hektor and 105 Elmar production ended before Bakelite cases were offered, but the Xenon and Telyt did not. Post #20 seems to be accurate that the start date for Bakelite was around 1940. Perhaps lenses beyond 135mm were not considered appropriate for plastic cases.

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Edited November 12, 2021 by alan mcfall

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks Alan !! So, lens' name on all of yours... hum... the question of the "elusive" BCDOO that can accomodate Hektor 2,8 Elmar 3,5 Summaron 3,5  remains an open one... 🙄... oh well, we can live with this doubt... 😁  A final question... if you put a Hektor 2,8 or Elmar 3,5  into the Summaron's container, does it "fit fine" , or there is an excess of play ?

 

[willeica]

11 hours ago, UliWer said:

Yes, the German brochure "Leica Objektive" from March 1954 says: "All Leica lenses are delivered in transparent plastic containers which provide protection against dust and mechanical blessures. At the same time there are containers in brown leather available."

I may have a version of that brochure in English which I will check.

5 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

Sorry for the photo from 2016 post that was not clear. All my bakelite containers have lens lettering on the bottom, none are blank. This photo shows the 35 Summaron(s) surrounding the 50 Summarit (BCOOA), all would be well post war, I believe.  I can't recall ever seeing a black bakelite case for the Xenon or 200 telyt.  I guess 73 Hektor and 105 Elmar production ended before Bakelite cases were offered, but the Xenon and Telyt did not. Post #20 seems to be accurate that the start date for Bakelite was around 1940. Perhaps lenses beyond 135mm were not considered appropriate for plastic cases.

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Are the 3.5 f3.5 Summaron keepers just for the smaller first version? The second version is considerably larger. I am talking about LTM versions, of course.

My final thought is that lenses grew in length when the M mount was introduced and this may have been an incentive to introduce the transparent keeper with a base which could be either M or LTM mount. There is a good deal of headroom inside the transparent keeper and the lens is held steady by the base. 

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

13 hours ago, willeica said:

 

Are the 3.5 f3.5 Summaron keepers just for the smaller first version? The second version is considerably larger. I am talking about LTM versions, of course.

 

I think yes : the 2nd version - E39 filter mount - arrived in '56-'57... no more times of bakelite keepers (and the transparent plastic box BOORW was listed as for Summaron 3,5, and for other LTM lenses too) 

Transparent boxes are sexier than bakelites, though more common and less "oldie" 😁 : I like particularly  the one for Super Angulon f4, which has the elongated LTM receptacle, to accomodate the protruding back part of the lens.

Edited November 12, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[Pyrogallol]

If this discussion is moving on to the plastic cases I have three different types for just the 90mm lenses.

I imagine the thin one might be the earliest, followed by the common fatter one and finally the later version with the more flatter angular top?

I do think the plastic ones are not as nice as the older Bakelite ones and the plastic ones are easy to cross thread when screwing the top and bottom together, as well as cracking over time, but then Bakelite is easy to break.

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[willeica]

58 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

If this discussion is moving on to the plastic cases I have three different types for just the 90mm lenses.

I imagine the thin one might be the earliest, followed by the common fatter one and finally the later version with the more flatter angular top?

I do think the plastic ones are not as nice as the older Bakelite ones and the plastic ones are easy to cross thread when screwing the top and bottom together, as well as cracking over time, but then Bakelite is easy to break.

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My first transparent keeper contained a prewar LTM which I bought in Wetzlar from Lars Netopil. It is the same as the one on the left above. . I’m sure that they had met up and were not together ‘since birth’. I have gone through some Leica lens brochures in English and found no reference to keepers. I will do a separate posting about that later when I can photograph and identify them for purposes of comparison with contemporary German brochures. 
 

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

Two of mine... one very clean and solid, the other dirty and cracked

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The 135 is too old for the keeper... but  this box is too thin to accomodate my Hektor and Elmar f4. the thick tripod mount makes the transparent cap impossible to fit onto... probably the first Hektors 13,5 had a slimmer tripod mount similar to old Elmar's one (I'll check... this is a detail on the evolution of Hektor I had never noticed 😉 those threads are always an occasion to learn something new... I got this box with the old Elmar above, and just now tried to put into an Hektor... )

Edited November 13, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[willeica]

 

On 11/11/2021 at 9:36 PM, UliWer said:

Yes, the German brochure "Leica Objektive" from March 1954 says: "All Leica lenses are delivered in transparent plastic containers which provide protection against dust and mechanical blessures. At the same time there are containers in brown leather available."

Has anybody ever seen the transparent plastic containes for the large lenses like the Telyts, the Hektor 12.5cm or even the Summarex? 

 

Inspired by UliWer's reference to a brochure in German called 'Leica Objektive', I looked at my brochures (a sample group of the brochures is shown below) from 1946 to 1969. The only thing I could find was a photo of a bakelite keeper for a 9cm/90 mm lens from the black covered brochure from E Leitz New York - probably late 1940s or very early 1950s as no f model is shown. The brochure may, of course, be a translation from a German brochure. The brochure at top left from 1946 shows the 127mm lens, but this does not appear in the black brochure. 

Other than that I can find no reference to keepers , either bakelite or transparent. 

I can go back to Jim Lager about the transparent items as he worked for a New York dealer for some of the relevant time, but he was emphatic that the bakelite items were not supplied on delivery.

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Alan might have something to add as he lives in the US and has a lot of New York items. 

William 

 

 

[alan mcfall]

On 9/28/2021 at 7:51 AM, luigi bertolotti said:

if you put a Hektor 2,8 or Elmar 3,5  into the Summaron's container, does it "fit fine" , or there is an excess of play ?

 

Quote

Here are the Hektor and the early summaron in the containers that are marked for them. They are a good fit, maybe 2mm clearance, room for a small cloth pad. The second photo show the Hektor in the case marked Summaron.  this case is 7 mm higher than the Hektor/Elmar case, so now we have about 9mm of clearance, pretty loose but could be padded. Note: the caps for the 90 and 135  Bakelite cases are  different sizes and have the female thread on the cap.  The cases for the 28 Hektor/ 35 Elmar, 50 Elmar/Summitar, and 35 Summaron  have the same cap but with the female threads on the base. They are interchangeable with each other, but not with the 90 or 135. The Summarit case is like the 135 and not like the Summitar. I am still looking for my late 39mm front Summaron to see it it also fits, but think it will.

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Edited November 14, 2021 by alan mcfall

[adoorn001]

One of the cases I have is quite wide (internal width of 9,2 cm and second from left on the picture). Any idea what i is for? It is not for the Hektor 7,3cm as it suits perfectly in the third from left.

Also see the slightly different heights of the two

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cases for the 9 cm Elmar.

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Hallo,

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[luigi bertolotti]

So wide... and longer than Hektor 7,3...  it makes to think of the Summarex. Leather case for Summarex listed as ENOOW in 1955 catalog ... or maybe for the first Summicron 90. (EZOOW / 14572)

Edited November 6, 2022 by luigi bertolotti