Couple of questions about the bakelite lens cases...

[landsknechte]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

When were these in production?  

Were these sold with the lenses originally, or were they a separate purchase?

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[luigi bertolotti]

I have some, and in my opinion they are prewar items : never seen one clearly made for a postwar lens (for instance, not for the Summaron 35, which has been the first postwar designed lens : I have the case for Elmar 35, and the Summaron 35 A36 does not fit into

And I think that they were delivered with the lens... I checked some catalogs of the '30s, and they do list the leather lens cases as accessories, and don't provide codes for the bakelite cases  (I think, but am not sure, that the bakelite cases maybe superseded the old red cardboard boxes for lenses) ; some day after WWII, the bakelite cases were superseded by the transparent plastic cases, which were part of lens' delivery kit : infact, catalogs of the '50s do list those cases specifying that are remplacements  (while the leather cases were, again, listed as accessories)

Those are my ideas and findings... but maybe someone is more knowledged on the matter .... the bakelite cases are generally black but I remember to have seen some in a brownish hue

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[pippy]

1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

...the bakelite cases are generally black but I remember to have seen some in a brownish hue...

The UK dealer Peter Loy (I have no affiliation) currently has a few bakelite cases one of which is of the brown variety. It is described as being;

"Leitz Bakelite keeper, light brown, for 9cm f4 Elmar. Condition 3/D. Rare & near mint..."

FWIW it is priced roughly double that of a regular black bakelite case. Interestingly another (now sold) was for the 3.5cm Summaron (possibly not for the 35mm Summaron). Here is a link if anyone would like to see these cases (scroll to roughly two-thirds down the page);

http://www.peterloy.com/stock-list.php

Philip.

Edited November 4, 2021 by pippy

[luigi bertolotti]

Ah ! 😎 Thanks a lot, Pippy ! So, it DOES exist for the Summaron, to say postwar... the 2nd picture of Peter Loy is clear... my one (marked "Elmar 3,5cm - Hektor 2,8 cm") is almost identical, but clearly a bit shorter... no way to accomodate a Summaron 3,5... and neither the Summaron 2,8cm (which has the "new style" plastic keeper, with the receptacle for the screw mount "decentered" to accomodate the protruding focus knob... 😉

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited November 4, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[willeica]

I have them for both pre-war and post war lenses, including the Summaron 35. For some reason, which I cannot figure out, I have never acquired a bakelite Leitz keeper, but I have a couple of sturdy black Russian bakelite keepers from the Krasnogorsk factory and they seem to be absolutely bomb proof. The really rare item that I have, though, is the aluminium tropical keeper for the Leitz 9cm lens. I got it for nothing as it came with a lens and I paid even less than normal for the lens.

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

Wlliam, what do you think about the OP question ? Were the bakelite cases (during their life ...'30s to sometime in the 'first '50s) part of the standard delivery of a lens or an accessory ?

In my opinion they were provided with the order of a lens... and the sequence was Red Cardboard noxes - Bakelite boxes - plastic transparent boxes.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[jc_braconi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

For illustration, bakelite cases from 28 to 135 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jc_braconi]

Here are the leather one

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[UliWer]

The Leitz pricelist from March 15th 1951 still lists the "Bakelitdosen":

BCDOO for Hektor 2.8cm and Elmar 3.5cm.           DM 1.20

BFKOO for Summaron 3.5cm                                    DM 1.50

BKSOO for Elmar 5cm and Summitar 5cm             DM 1.50

BCOOA for Summarit 5cm                                         DM 1.50

BDFOO for Elmar 9cm                                                 DM 2.00

BDOOZ for Hektor 13.5cm                                          DM 3.00

The Leitz Catalog from April 1954 does not list them any more but only the transparent "Objektivbüchse aus Polystyrol" (BOORW for 2.8 and 3.5cm lenses as well as for 5cm Elmar, BOOSK for other 5cm lenses; BOOPV for 9cm Elmar and BDOOZ for 13.5cm Hektor).

I think the bakelit containers were delivered with the lenses, as I do not find them in a catologue from 1936 and the post war catalagues list them as "Ersatz", which means you could buy them as a subtitute if you lost one.  But I am not completely sure since there were also red containers made of carton which were certainly delivered with pre-war lenses (though it makes sense to assume that they preceded the bakelit containers, as Luigi luigi stated). The later transparent containers were delivered with the lenses and you could buy them as substitutes.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by UliWer

[willeica]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:05 PM, luigi bertolotti said:

Wlliam, what do you think about the OP question ? Were the bakelite cases (during their life ...'30s to sometime in the 'first '50s) part of the standard delivery of a lens or an accessory ?

In my opinion they were provided with the order of a lens... and the sequence was Red Cardboard noxes - Bakelite boxes - plastic transparent boxes.

 

I think that they could be supplied at delivery, but there are so few of them about that I doubt if they were standard with delivery. I will check some of my mid 1930s catalogues to see what they say. A photo of my 'bomb proof' Russian Krasnogorsk keepers is attached. Also attached are some photos of my slightly battered aluminium tropical keeper for the 9cm Elmar, which I effectively got for free as I just paid the price for the lens. These fetch silly money these days.The rarest of all items are leather cases for Leitz viewfinders which usually just came in a box. In the last photo I show the leather case of the already rare finder for 7.3cm Hektor. I got this for a reasonable amount as part of a job lot at auction. It is always worthwhile looking at job lots as rare items can be lurking in there.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

William

[willeica]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:05 PM, luigi bertolotti said:

Wlliam, what do you think about the OP question ? Were the bakelite cases (during their life ...'30s to sometime in the 'first '50s) part of the standard delivery of a lens or an accessory ?

In my opinion they were provided with the order of a lens... and the sequence was Red Cardboard noxes - Bakelite boxes - plastic transparent boxes.

 

Me again. There is no reference to the bakelite or plastic containers in the British Catalogues for 1931, 1933, 1936 and 1938. From 1933 onwards a list of leather cases for lenses is shown as well as small cases and purses for accessories. There is no mention of the aluminium tropical keepers, but I suspect these were for 'special order' only which causes their rarity today. 

Laney , in his book, showed a full list of such cases, for lenses and accessories, but made no mention of the bakelite keepers. The relevant pages are below. The illustration shown here is the same as the one which appeared in the catalogue from 1933 onwards. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Some of my smaller early Leica lenses came in boxes eg I have 3.5cm Elmars in both purple and red 'pill boxes'. The boxes do not seem big enough to have contained a keeper. The earliest keeper, which I have, came with a 9cm Elmar from about 1938/9, which I bought from Lars. It has a clear plastic top and a black base and I suspect it is postwar like other ones which I have with clear tops, such as the one for the 35mm Summaron. I should have asked Lars about the 9cm keeper when I bought the item. 

If the keepers came with every lens for a period of time, the mystery of why there are so few keepers around today compared to the number of lenses might have something to do with the fact that they would have performed very well as keepers for small items like jewellery or safety pins and the like. I'm just thinking out loud here. 

Finally, I believe that 5cm/50mm standard lenses which were supplied on cameras were actually on the cameras when delivered. This is based on information which the Leica Archives used to give out at one stage.

I may just fire emails off to Jim Lager and Lars to see if they have any knowledge or wisdom to add to what we have. The list from 1951 which UliWer supplied, presumably from a German dealer, is as close as we have come to identifying the items. The code words in that list do not appear in the Code Word Index at the back of Laney's book.

William 

[zeitz]

No bakelite, plastic or tropical cases in the 1939 E. Leitz NY catalog either.  Uli codes are also not in the code number listing.  (The Leica RIFLE Gun is listed for $272, not including camera, lens or reflex housing.)

[landsknechte]

Quote

If the keepers came with every lens for a period of time, the mystery of why there are so few keepers around today compared to the number of lenses might have something to do with the fact that they would have performed very well as keepers for small items like jewellery or safety pins and the like. I'm just thinking out loud here. 

That's a good point.  I can't help but wonder what (if anything) there is to be made of the apparent survival rate of these into the present time.  The 90mm Elmar version seems to be the most common on the used market, by quite a bit. Are the 50mm keepers more likely to have been worn out and broken over the years?  Is there just more demand for them as collectibles?

[willeica]

13 minutes ago, landsknechte said:

Are the 50mm keepers more likely to have been worn out and broken over the years?

 

5 hours ago, willeica said:

Finally, I believe that 5cm/50mm standard lenses which were supplied on cameras were actually on the cameras when delivered.

The answer to your question may lie there. I suspect that most 5cm/50mm lenses were supplied on cameras and not in boxes or keepers.

 

William

[FPangrazi]

 

 

[FPangrazi]

They were produced for 9 focal lengths....

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[willeica]

7 hours ago, FPangrazi said:

They were produced for 9 focal lengths....

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Nice collection. These will continue to appreciate in value as they will remain rare.

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

About the relative scarcety of bakelite boxes... I think the question is simple : supposed (as I think) that they were delivered with an addon lens (and not with the standard 50, if bought with camera) , how many were kept with care ? How many buyers did have in mind that one day those "trivial" black containers would have been of some interest/value for people like us ? 😁 A buyer, say, of a 90 or 35 or 28 USED his lens... if he wanted to have a "fine-transportable" case... there were the leather cases with strap... if he had a "rich" set, there were the several "combination" leather cases (which accomodated the lens without the bakelite keeper, btw) ... and we are speaking of lenses mainly from the '30s... what was the story behind their re-appearing on the market 70 to 90 years after ?  "lost in the process" is the most probable destiny of the bakelite cases... 😉 

(one of the very few lenses I bought new was the Summarit 75... being of a "cheap" family it arrived on a cheap sachet... not a leather pouch...  I didn't care of it and dunno where it is now... if one of my heirs one day will sell the Summarit... it will be surely without... 😎)

Edited November 7, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[derleicaman]

I have a number of the Bakelite "keepers" that came with many of the pre-war lenses. Mostly in black, I also have some that are brown in color. I seem to recall also seeing one in red in one of Lager's books. They were for the 2,8cm, 3,5cm, 9cm and 13,5cm lenses. I don't think I have seen the one that JC shows above. I have never seen one for the 7,3cm Hektor either. I do agree that very few of the 50mm lenses ever came with them as they came on the camera bodies, and they were shipped in the cardboard clam shell boxes. I have seen a number of bakelite keepers for various Russian lenses.

[UliWer]

 

On 11/6/2021 at 6:45 PM, zeitz said:

No bakelite, plastic or tropical cases in the 1939 E. Leitz NY catalog either.  Uli codes are also not in the code number listing.  (The Leica RIFLE Gun is listed for $272, not including camera, lens or reflex housing.)

There is a german list "Leica Zubehör" (Leica accessories) from 1940 (Liste Photo Nr. 7335 f.) which mentions the "Bakelitdosen" on p. 17 with the codewords Bcdoo, Bksoo, Bdfoo I quoted in #9, but none for the 13.5cm Hektor. Whilst the 7.3cm Hektor and the 9cm Thambar had their own leather containers, they had none in bakelit. 

The same list from 1937 (Liste Photo Nr. 7335 d) does not mention them at all. 

So it seems that they were introduced only during the war (or perhaps shortly before it), perhaps only in Germany, and probably not during the whole wartime. Bakelit was a rather expensive plastic and I doubt that it could be used for "civilian" purposes during wartime.  

Whilst the pricelist from march 1951 still has all of them, the next list from April 1952 only mentions the "Bakelitdose" BDOOZ for the 13.5cm Hektor, which also disappeared in the catalogue from 1954. For all shorter lenses the list from 1952 only mentions the new transparent "Polystyrol-Objektivbüchsen"  (BOORW, BOOSK and BOOPV) .

So the scarcity of the bakelit containers may be explained by the short time of approx. a dozen years when they were offered by Leitz, and even this short span may have had a large gap during wartime and perhaps the very first years after the war.

Edited November 9, 2021 by UliWer