Your Mandler MVP's (Most Valuable Players)

[ianman]

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4 hours ago, grahamc said:

only temporarily probably 

 

It’s like playing on the stock exchange.

[evikne]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:08 AM, grahamc said:

only temporarily probably 

This has been discussed so many times before. So yesterday I sent an email to Leica to get this clarified once and for all. Here is the answer I got:

 

Dear Mr. Vikne,

Thank you very much for your inquiry.

Since the optical design has not changed, we still consider Dr. Walter Mandler the designer of the 50mm Summilux-M.

Best regards,

Tim Ketzer
Leica Camera AG 
Customer Care

Edited November 4, 2021 by evikne

[grahamc]

Very interesting @evikne .. thanks ! 

[ianman]

Yay, back up to 3

 

[lct]

 

On 11/2/2021 at 11:40 PM, lct said:

In 1994/1995 really? I have no idea, just that Leica wrote me this in 2017: 

« The LEICA SUMMILUX M 1.4/50 lens (code 11868) was launched approx. 1994 on photokina in Cologne. The first deliveries have been made beginning of 1995. This lens in question was the third generation of this SUMMILUX lens and was totally redesigned, optical and mechanical. E.g. The close-up focus was now 70 cm. and it had an telescopic lens hood.  The lens was discontinued approx. 2004. Hoping this information will be helpful. Have a nice day »

 

1 hour ago, evikne said:

Dear Mr. Vikne,

Thank you very much for your inquiry.

Since the optical design has not changed, we still consider Dr. Walter Mandler the designer of the 50mm Summilux-M.

Best regards,

Interesting indeed...

[ianman]

2.5 ?

[pippy]

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3 hours ago, lct said:

Interesting indeed...

I wonder if there's some inconsistency in the naming of the various versions over the years and this is causing some confusion as to what, exactly, is what.

In the letter lct received Leica state;

"This lens in question was the third generation (my stress) of this SUMMILUX lens and was totally redesigned, optical and mechanical. E.g. The close-up focus was now 70 cm. and it had an telescopic lens hood.  The lens was discontinued approx. 2004."

OTOH both Mr. Puts and Marco Cavina both consider the 1994-2004 Summilux (11868) to be a continuation of the v2 and it isn't until the ASPH was released - to the design by Peter Karbe - that they use the designation v3. Indeed under a picture showing the 11868 lens Herr Puts writes;

"The current Summilux-M version was introduced in 1962..." and marks no change until the ASPH is discussed.

Several other sources I've read also state that the 11868 redesign shared the same optical formula as the '62 lens although the '94 incarnation does have a 0.7m MFD. Perhaps the "redesign" mentioned in the Leica correspondence covered both outward form and MFD but the optical cell stayed the same? Much as, for example, when the 75 f2.5 Summarit was re-engineered to have a closer MFD and subsequently released as the f2.4 version - yet the optics (AFAIK) were the same.

Just a thought. It IS very curious, however, that there should be so much confusion. One would have thought it would be a pretty clear-cut case!

Philip.

Edited November 4, 2021 by pippy

[adan]

I think it's a spill-over from "collectoritis." Confusion of cosmetics with function.

Leica did not make a big deal about versions - except when the important part (the glass) actually changed. OR - when they wanted to make a marginal extra thousand DM or five by intentionally producing "special" editions the collectors would chase after. Collectors do live in a parallel universe having little to do with the art and craft of photography.

Something which does date back, in small part, to 1930, and the gold-plated "Luxus" version: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21288/lot/1682/

- but only became really wide-ranging after production was consolidated in Solms in the 1980s. When Leica had to make up for declining professional sales.

Leica did produce a few other early limited editions, with special practical, functional modifications, for premium customers. Such as the original MPE and MPD for world-famous LIFE magazine photographers Alfred Eisenstadt and David Douglas Duncan. Which since they were making them anyway, were expanded to an additional ~400 cameras sold only to other working pros (one had to submit one's press credentials to get one). Or the M2-R or S - which (originally as a military contract) prototyped the rapid-load system that became standard with the M4.

Anyway, it has become a fetish to try and find something - anything - about one's otherwise bog-standard Leica gear (be it this or that knurling, or a new lens hood, or a new minimum-focus distance, or red numbering, or a "steel ring") that makes it "special." Leica owners often want to stand out from the crowd - even if it is just the small crowd of fellow Leica owners.

Plus the fact that Leica did - for simple business reasons - apply separate catalog (not version) numbers, to distinguish minor differences (silver or black, built-in hood or not) so that dealers would get the exact product they ordered.

And thus the unofficial "fantasy versions" multiplied.

........................

Now, it appears to be the case (as this thread shows) that "Mandler Lenses" have developed a certain - cachet - all their own.

Which may explain Leica's course-reversal regarding the 50 Summilux versions. It is now more important that the integral-lens-hood, 0.7m-meter focusing 50mm Summilux be authoritatively placed in the "Mandler" category, rather than in the "Version III" category.

Edited November 4, 2021 by adan

[lct]

27 minutes ago, Artin said:

If it’s this one you are talking about it mentions here it was Karbe. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

In 1994? 

[evikne]

32 minutes ago, Artin said:

If it’s this one you are talking about it mentions here it was Karbe. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Don't trust Leica Wiki. It is full of errors. The ordinary Wikipedia says something else (but a v3 is not mentioned there, because it's considered as the same lens as v2).

[grahamc]

since making the thread I rotated through most of the mandler designed 35’s and 50’s, as well as a couple of 90’s.  and settled on for faves: 

28: still dont own 

35: 35:1.4 v2

50: 50:1.4 v3

75: still don’t own

90: 90:2 v3 

 

 

[adan]

BTW - I noticed a small misconception crept in here over the years.

Walter Mandler designed (and built) two 28mm Elmarit-Ms at Leitz Canada - v.2 and v.3

http://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/28mm_f/2.8_Elmarit_II

The v.2 was a 1972 "emergency fix" to allow metering on the M5, by adopting a retrofocus design (far less protrusion of the rear element), compared to the symmetrical v.1

But as Dr. Mandler's first-ever retrofocus M lens, it showed his relative experience with the type (which had only been widely introduced about a decade before, with the SLR revolution of the 1960s) - and neither needed, nor desirable* for mirrorless, meterless Ms, until the M5.

*It took until about 1980 for retrofocus designers to really get their act together, throughout the industry. Even Zeiss's Distagons suffered by comparison to symmetrical wide angles - thus the long life of the Zeiss Biogon 38mm formula on the Hasselblad SWCs.

Edited August 30, 2024 by adan