Leica vs Nikon quality

[tobey bilek]

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I am trying to set up a grab and go kit Leica M.  I am short a 28mm for one set and then remembered I own a 28 Nikon 2.8, the best one they made, actually two of the, plus a $25 Fotodiox trial adapter Nikon to M.  I attached the combo to my M8 and the photos look great except some of the right side is cut off with extra image on left.  I tried the same with other Nikon 28 and same thing.  

Naturally I blamed the cheap adapter for ends not being parallel.  It happens with a view camera if you tilt to get more near to far focus.   Measuring with my calipers they are parallel.  Is it the camera? So I used a Leica 28 and frame lines and image are perfect.

That leaves the lens, actually both.  Next step in diagnosis is my Leica 28 2.8 shift lens with same adapter. This lens has been converted to Nikon mount.   Image is perfect.

Conclusion is lens elements , ie image axis,  is not perpendicular to film ( sensor) plane.  

Anyone know how to remove the screws on the Nikon lens mount so I can shim one side? I think I need to heat to break the Locktite.

One might think it is ok for Nikon reflex,  but the same thing will happen and you can see it and correct.  BUT focus in the field will be off, back focus one side, front focus in the other.

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by tobey bilek

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[jaeger]

34 minutes ago, tobey bilek said:

Conclusion is lens elements , ie image axis,  is not perpendicular to film ( sensor) plane.

it's unheard of... but glad you've discovered this little secret.

 

34 minutes ago, tobey bilek said:

remove the screws on the Nikon lens mount so I can shim one side

keep us update and share some before and after images please.  I'm super curious.

Edited September 28, 2021 by jaeger

[pgk]

41 minutes ago, tobey bilek said:

Conclusion is lens elements , ie image axis,  is not perpendicular to film ( sensor) plane.  

Anyone know how to remove the screws on the Nikon lens mount so I can shim one side? I think I need to heat to break the Locktite.

Are you saying that one side is sharper than the other in which case a shim might work but the adapter or lenses are projecting an image which is not planar with the sensor? Or that the image is displaced horizontally (shifted) in which case the lens axis is not centred on the sensor? Very different scenarios. Could you post samples?

Soldering iron usually works ok.

[cheeseyk]

Or a drop of Acetone. And it is absolutely essential to use a JIS screwdriver to avoid stripping the screw head.

Edited September 28, 2021 by cheeseyk

[mmradman]

21 minutes ago, cheeseyk said:

Or a drop of Acetone. And it is absolutely essential to use a JIS screwdriver to avoid stripping the screw head.

+1 for JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) cross head screwdrivers.  Normal (European/US) Philips are damage waiting to happen.

[tobey bilek]

7 hours ago, pgk said:

Are you saying that one side is sharper than the other in which case a shim might work but the adapter or lenses are projecting an image which is not planar with the sensor? Or that the image is displaced horizontally (shifted) in which case the lens axis is not centred on the sensor? Very different scenarios. Could you post samples?

Soldering iron usually works ok.

Had not thought of displacement.   My test subject is back yard and homes other side of block.    Many nice colors also. F 4.0 at. 250 feet  everything is in focus.

I am going to have to find a way to test displacement B4 I attempt a repair.   This can not be repaired by me.  

One further test was done,  A telephone pole was placed just outside the normal lens, 35 mm, frame lines.  It was cut off image. This is pretty severe.

 

 

 

[tobey bilek]

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6 hours ago, mmradman said:

+1 for JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) cross head screwdrivers.  Normal (European/US) Philips are damage waiting to happen.

Acetone seems most simple, and I have a set of JIS which I use in Leica.   If no go, I will get the solder iron from hiding.

[tobey bilek]

Not displacement.  Test is my two door garage.  I stood in the center and focused on area between doors and found a spot where edges of both doors were at edge of frame.

Easy with Nikon F2. Unless they shift the film gate on purpose  and all lenses are made that way.

 

[tobey bilek]

Problem solved.  Adapter does not touch focus cam so the frame lines are set for minimum focus, ie lower left.  Therefore the image on right is cut off because the frame lines indicate more on right than what is really there.  Remember sensor image is reversed left to right and top/bottom. Image is from Nikon D3 which is a 100% viewfinder .

Selected right side is the shutter on the blue home. This is my standard test shot when weather is decent.

Just for fun,  image is raw straight from camera with NO processing except for JPEG conversion With Capture One.

I tried live view on M10 and it all lines up perfectly. Can not use frame lines at all.  Hope I can find my 28 mm bright line finder.

 

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Edited September 29, 2021 by tobey bilek

[graphlex]

I used that 28 in this photo of Pope Paul VI in 1967.  Its vintage is marked by my having been allowed, in a crowd, to be close enough to use a wide-angle lens.

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[250swb]

Well for sure if this is the Nikon 28mm 2.8 AIS  (not the AI) lens it is legendary, no distortion from infinity to close focus of 7 inches because of the floating elements, but maybe use a Visoflex to get the most from it?

[adan]

On 9/29/2021 at 1:17 PM, tobey bilek said:

Problem solved.  Adapter does not touch focus cam so the frame lines are set for minimum focus, ie lower left.  Therefore the image on right is cut off because the frame lines indicate more on right than what is really there.  ..... I tried live view on M10 and it all lines up perfectly. Can not use frame lines at all.  Hope I can find my 28 mm bright line finder.

Ummm, yes. That is exactly what I was going to point out.

Non-RF-coupled lenses will never correctly position the internal framelines (except maybe at ~0.7m)  - or even move them at all.

Because the framing-parallax correction is linked to the in-and-out movement of the lens cam. No focusing  link = no parallax correction.

Your external 28 finder should work at least as well as it would with an RF-coupled M lens - since it is never coupled to the RF anyway. It just has the dashed (and fixed) "closeup crop" reminder mark across the top. And some leeway built in (it actually frames for about a 30mm image, just so you don't accidentally cut off heads and such. They are still there on the final image).
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I also agree the Nikkor 28mm AI-s was absolutely the equal of the Leica M 28s of its era (v.3 and v.4). Phenomenal lens.

It was my go-to "I'm pretending I'm using a Leica" lens on an F or FM, from 1983-1997-ish. I didn't buy an M6 and 28 v.4 in 1995 (from a photog at the newspaper), precisely because a comparison revealed no resolution difference between them at all, on Velvia.

Although I've also noticed that there are very few less-than-great 28mm f/2.8 lenses, at least from the top makers post-1980 (Leica, Nikon, Canon, Zeiss-Kyocera-Contax). They seem to be a fairly easy "formula" to get right.