40mm Cron / Rokkor buddies in 35/50

[grahamc]

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7 hours ago, oldwino said:

One option may be the 50/2.4 Summarit. I found it as sharp as the Summicron v4/5, but had a gentler rendering (the Summicrons can be, for me, a tad too clinical). The size is nice, too.
I also like the suggestion of the 50 Summilux Pre Asph. Gorgeous lens, in every way, kind of its own sub-genre. 

Thanks, the pre-asph is really tempting and I'll look further into the Summarit also, thanks 

[a.noctilux]

Summarit or Summarit-M they are not the same :

in Wiki , Summarit 5cm

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....

 

I use this Summarit-M 2.5/50mm, Wiki again which for me more compact ( E39 filter) than the following

   

 

2.4/50  (E46 filter) in Wiki

 

as we are here, let's see the Summilux-M 50mm III (pre-asph.)

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by a.noctilux

[grahamc]

Here's a couple of images I have handy from the 40:2.  

@oldwino due to it's bite and moderate contrast, I suspect it in itself could be accused of being a little more 'clinical' or modern than dreamier lenses like the 2:1.4 pre-asph , so the Cron v4/5 is still somewhat in the running.     But in general the word 'clinical' doesn't fill me with excitement ! 

Firstly here 40:2 and TMax 

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Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

40:2 Tri X  
 

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Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

40:2 Portra 160
 

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Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

Finally, 40:2 with another Portra 160 .  It really isn't that characterful, it's pretty crispy.

if these give anyone any more insight into what may work for me and especially suitability of the v4/5 please let me know 

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Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[a.noctilux]

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Graham,

I think that if you are not happy with your Summicron 50 III, maybe it's faulty (haze or what else).

Nothing wrong if you want to 'know' other Summicron 50 😉 to compare the results.

[grahamc]

7 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Graham,

I think that if you are not happy with your Summicron 50 III, maybe it's faulty (haze or what else).

Nothing wrong if you want to 'know' other Summicron 50 😉 to compare the results.

Yes I think it's not performing correctly .  

I'll also decide in the next few days whether to buy a latest cron to see for myself the differences  

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[pippy]

39 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Summarit or Summarit-M they are not the same...

You have a wonderful talent for understatement, Arnaud; Chapeau!

In truth they could hardly be more different - especially at the wider-aperture end of the fun'n'games. I really love the drawing of the fairly recent f2.5 / f2.4 series of Summarit-M lenses and I also dearly love my old 50mm f1.5 '53 Summarit (M) - which has been one of my 'Most-Used-Lenses' during the last 6 months - but, in all honesty, given Graham's request for lenses which might be able to offer results which match the spirit of his 40mm f2 Rokkor I doubt whether either of the Summarit variants would deliver the neccessary goods.

No offence to anyone intended but I also doubt whether the 50mm pre-asph Summilux - gorgeous as its rendering undoubtedly is - would fit his original criteria either; it is a lens of a very different character. Wonderful lens in so many ways, of course, but not anything like a match for the 40 f2 Rokkor in the way it renders and so, if that is the match which Graham is looking for I suspect he might be better advised looking elsewhere.

Which brings us back to the v4 / v5 Summicron. Tab being preferrable that indicates the v4.

It is also worth bearing in mind that, so good is its performance, Leica has not deemed it neccessary to alter this pre-asph 50mm Summicron's optical design since 1979...

Philip.

Edited September 27, 2021 by pippy

[grahamc]

8 minutes ago, pippy said:

You have a wonderful talent for understatement, Arnaud; Chapeau!

In truth they could hardly be more different - especially at the wider-aperture end of the fun'n'games. I really love the drawing of the fairly recent f2.5 / f2.4 series of Summarit-M lenses and I also dearly love my old 50mm f1.5 '53 Summarit (M) - which has been one of my 'Most-Used-Lenses' during the last 6 months - but, in all honesty, given Graham's request for lenses which might be able to offer results which match the spirit of his 40mm f2 Rokkor I doubt whether either of the Summarit variants would deliver the neccessary goods.

No offence to anyone intended but I also doubt whether the 50mm pre-asph Summilux - gorgeous as its rendering undoubtedly is - would fit his original criteria either; it is a lens of a very different character. Wonderful lens in so many ways, of course, but not anything like a match for the 40 f2 Rokkor in the way it renders and so, if that is the match which Graham is looking for I suspect he might be better advised looking elsewhere.

JMO.

Philip.

I agree about the Pre-ASPH Pippy (can't common ton the Summarits but appreciate this info).    The 50 Summilux pre-asph is absolutely on the shopping list for the future (it's been there sometime and will be excited to get to know it in due course), but I agree it probably doesn't fit the current criteria 

Maybe a good outcome would be that a CLA improves my v3 cron and then the next 50mm can indeed be in another category .... ie the Pre-ASPH


 

Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[a.noctilux]

13 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Nothing, nada ...

In my view, you would not find the thing you like in M-Rokkor 40mm in 50mm field.

My explanation (individual, nothing universal) is simply the field of 40mm which is the sweet spot, not replicable with 35mm or 50mm.

To say it another way, maybe this famous (mystic ?) diagonal of 43mm of 24x36 which the closest is 40mm lenses.

Even in the beginning of Leica, so long ago, the first lens (legend ? short time ...) used was a microscope lens of 42mm 😉.

Philip, my post #4

in my view it's a lost research to 'match' the 40mm with 50mm lens,

as I've done that before, trying to match lenses, and I failed 👎

👍 just opportunities to discover other 50mm lens

[pippy]

25 minutes ago, grahamc said:

I agree about the Pre-ASPH Pippy (can't comment on the Summarits but appreciate this info). The 50 Summilux pre-asph is absolutely on the shopping list for the future (it's been there sometime and will be excited to get to know it in due course), but I agree it probably doesn't fit the current criteria...

The recent Summarits were designed to offer outstanding IQ with digital bodies - and, my goodness, they really do deliver in that regard - so give very different rendering from, say, Mandler-era designs. Neither, of course, is any 'better' nor any 'worse' than the other but they are different. For 'atmosphere'(?) the older lenses are possibly more 'comfortable'; for accuracy the Karbe-era lenses are the way to go.

The 50mm f1.5 Summarit shown in Arnaud's earlier post (#23) was the immediate predecessor of the v1 Summilux and was produced from '49 until '57 and had even more ancient rendering than had the 'lux v1! Beautiful but, possibly, Not For Everyone's Taste...

Philip.

[lct]

As far as my lenses are concerned, i would associate any 40/2 Leica or Rokkor lens with Summilux 50/1.4 v2 or Summicron 50/2 v3 but 50/1.4 v3 and 50/2 v4 should do it too. Same for Summilux 35/1.4 v2.

[pippy]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

...Maybe a good outcome would be that a CLA improves my v3 cron...

It would certainly be a good first-step.

In the OP you state;

"Currently I own the 50mm Cron v3 but my copy is not particularly sharp and is also relatively low contrast compared to my 40:2 (Rokkor)..."

According to the very entertaining (IMO) Mr. K. Rockwell the v3 should be perfectly fine in terms of contrast so that indicates a CLA might be on the cards. OTOH he also states that the v3 is, possibly, not exactly the sharpest 50mm Summicron in the world so perhaps that aspect isn't going to change any time soon. On the off-chance you haven't yet seen his summation;

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/50mm-summicron-comparison-table.htm

Philip.

Edited September 27, 2021 by pippy

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, lct said:

As far as my lenses are concerned, i would associate any 40/2 Leica or Rokkor lens with Summilux 50/1.4 v2 or Summicron 50/2 v3 but 50/1.4 v3 and 50/2 v4 should do it too. Same for Summilux 35/1.4 v2.

Thanks @lct - Will see what a CLA does for it as I had also assumed the cron would be close-ish 

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

It would certainly be a good first-step.

In the OP you state;

"Currently I own the 50mm Cron v3 but my copy is not particularly sharp and is also relatively low contrast compared to my 40:2 (Rokkor)..."

According to the very entertaining (IMO) Mr. K. Rockwell the v3 should be perfectly fine in terms of contrast so that indicates a CLA might be on the cards. OTOH he also states that the v3 is, possibly, not exactly the sharpest 50mm Summicron in the world so perhaps that aspect isn't going to change any time soon. On the off-chance you haven't yet seen his summation;

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/50mm-summicron-comparison-table.htm

Philip.

Thanks - yes this article is one of his better ones !   Let's assume CLA may help contrast issue since this version is often mentioned to be moderate contrast.  The sharpness, well lets see how it comes back .

I'd be reasonably surprised if it's performing to it's designed sharpness but it could be.  Although it is reminiscent to when the older summilux (35;1.4 v2) is opened up a bit (not wide open, where we know this 35:1.4 v2 takes on a life of it's own).  So a dreamy and pleasant kind of "sharpness" (or lack thereof).    I've mentioned a few times that I like these 2 as a pair, for that reason.  I seem to get a little glow from my 50:2 v3. 

Let's get it tuned up a bit and see if any closer to knowing where it sits in it's ideal state  

Edited September 28, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

15 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Not the simplest task finding an equivalent in render. Anything from Walter Mandler should be the closest contender for that classic 70's look, your best bet is to try the 35mm summicron Mandler designed in 1969 (they call it #2) to catch the possible closest equivalent. Marco Cavina states here that the 40/2 is inspired by summicron-M 35mm f/2 model number 11309

Very interesting I've just had chance to look at that article and the diagrams 

[grahamc]

7 hours ago, lct said:

As far as my lenses are concerned, i would associate any 40/2 Leica or Rokkor lens with Summilux 50/1.4 v2 or Summicron 50/2 v3 but 50/1.4 v3 and 50/2 v4 should do it too. Same for Summilux 35/1.4 v2.

Hi @lct.  Do the 2 Summilux versions you mention here share the same optics ?  I think they do and the v3 is presumably the E46 with pull out hood and 0.7 focus distance.

Curious why you have grouped then separately here in terms of fit - is it due to size/ergonomics , or is it that your copies v2 / v3 perform differently ? Thanks 

[lct]

50/1.4 v3 has a new optical design according to Leica, they confirmed it to me in a mail i will retrieve if you wish. I own both versions and i find v3 has less vignetting and a shorter MFD let alone its built-in hood. Also 50/1.4 v2 requires special M43x0.5 filters with a groove in their mount so that the 12586 clip-on hood can grip to it. IQ wise both match well my Leica and Rokkor 40/2 i feel but it is a matter of tastes obviously so better try them in person if you can.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

No, it is the 6 element double Gauss Summicron 35 version II, virtually the same construction as the 40/2.

Thanks. That's great to know.