What on Earth is going on here?......

[pippy]

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Reviewing some snaps from today I saw a phenomenon utterly new to me and I wondered if any of our better-informed members have an explanation?

Just taking some casual snaps using a 50mm f1.5 Summarit on the M-D Typ-262 to fill in some time. Lens was cleaned prior to shooting so dust, while possible, is unlikely to be the culprit. The photo in question(*) was taken at min. focus, lens wide-open at 1/3000 @ ISO 200. No filter. Camera sensor was cleaned just a few days ago and - looking at the photographs both immediately before- and after this image was captured there is no repeat of the weirdness.

Whole image (very lo-res) to give you an idea of full-frame then a couple of c. 400% crops. The areas I'm interested in are the two flare 'wings' ('warm' upper-right and 'cold' lower-left) caused by the sun which was only fractionally outside picture area. The curious 'bits' - AFAIAC - are the multitude of 'Saturnesque' rings which are only visible in the 'wing' areas; they appear nowhere else on this frame nor any other;

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Hopefully these are going to be high-enough res to illustrate what I'm asking about. Any ideas please let them flow and thanks in advance!

Philip.

* Yes; I know it will also need a Whole Lotta Post-Prod in any case! I thought it better to post the unworked thing so as not to muddy waters further.

Edited September 17, 2021 by pippy

[jaeger]

I found 2 lines in every photos dated back to when I took delivery of my M240.  I shown them to the tech in Wetzlar, they admit the issue but not doing anything about it.

Do a test for yourself, in lightroom, do push highlights, shadows, texture, clarity and dehaze to either extreme (-100 or +100) and you will see flaws.  I bet many of problematic sensors are sold to customers.

[pippy]

6 minutes ago, jaeger said:

...Do a test for yourself, in lightroom, do push highlights, shadows, texture, clarity and dehaze to either extreme (-100 or +100) and you will see flaws...

Thanks for the suggestion, Jaeger.

I did scrutinise both this shot and also the photographs before and after at up to 600% in Photoshop and the only areas affected are within the boundaries of the 'wings'. In each crop there are areas both lighter and darker than the affected area and there is absolutely no hint whatsoever of anything like what we see here.

And as the frame in question was shot at f1.5 I'm guessing that dust on the sensor can be ruled out absolutely.

Philip.

[Danner]

I seent them.  Weird.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Danner

[jaeger]

Pippy, I see those bubbles like dots in your attached image.  It appears to me like a mickey mouse transparent coating.  can you check the images dated back to when you bought the camera?  If we can gather enough victims like us hopefully Leica will take it more seriously. 

[M9reno]

My best guess - largely judging from the nature of the Summarit - is that this is lens flare. If the same effect appeared with a modern lens, only then would I be inclined to worry about the sensor.

[pippy]

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30 minutes ago, jaeger said:

Pippy, I see those bubbles like dots in your attached image.  It appears to me like a mickey mouse transparent coating.  can you check the images dated back to when you bought the camera?  If we can gather enough victims like us hopefully Leica will take it more seriously. 

Nothing on any image except this one.

Philip.

[pippy]

22 minutes ago, M9reno said:

My best guess - largely judging from the nature of the Summarit - is that this is lens flare. If the same effect appeared with a modern lens, only then would I be inclined to worry about the sensor.

Thanks, M9, but the dot problem is only seen in this one frame and only within flare areas in this one frame. Other images shot at the same time which have flare do not have this dot problem.

Philip.

[Capuccino-Muffin]

This is obviously refraction. In this case, light traveling into the glass sideways. 
 

This is a specific angle of light. 
 

Happens to any and all lenses except those with a very high refractive index.

[pippy]

50 minutes ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

This is obviously refraction. In this case, light traveling into the glass sideways. 
 

This is a specific angle of light. 
 

Happens to any and all lenses except those with a very high refractive index.

Thanks for the suggestion, C-M, but I'm not asking about the flare - which was fully expected - but specifically about the small 'Saturn/Doughnut' phenomenon seen only within the flare areas of the snaps posted.

Any ideas welcomed!

Philip.

 

[willeica]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

Reviewing some snaps from today I saw a phenomenon utterly new to me and I wondered if any of our better-informed members have an explanation?

Just taking some casual snaps using a 50mm f1.5 Summarit on the M-D Typ-262 to fill in some time. Lens was cleaned prior to shooting so dust, while possible, is unlikely to be the culprit. The photo in question(*) was taken at min. focus, lens wide-open at 1/3000 @ ISO 200. No filter. Camera sensor was cleaned just a few days ago and - looking at the photographs both immediately before- and after this image was captured there is no repeat of the weirdness.

Whole image (very lo-res) to give you an idea of full-frame then a couple of c. 400% crops. The areas I'm interested in are the two flare 'wings' ('warm' upper-right and 'cold' lower-left) caused by the sun which was only fractionally outside picture area. The curious 'bits' - AFAIAC - are the multitude of 'Saturnesque' rings which are only visible in the 'wing' areas; they appear nowhere else on this frame nor any other;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Hopefully these are going to be high-enough res to illustrate what I'm asking about. Any ideas please let them flow and thanks in advance!

Philip.

* Yes; I know it will also need a Whole Lotta Post-Prod in any case! I thought it better to post the unworked thing so as not to muddy waters further.

I'm not sure what you are looking at here, Philip. The flare rings in this seem to be caused by sunlight of some kind being altered by the lens glass and aperture. Did you take more than one shot or vary your position?

The following was taken with a 1932 Rigid Summar at f2 or f2.2 on an M240 on a dull November day, but on a bright sunny June day I am sure that those little bokeh circles behind the main subject would be full of lights of various kinds.

I am also sure that a series of shots from varied positions would show different bokeh lights and highlights. 

The potential to do this is in your lens and also in nature and your position.

For what its worth, I like such unpredictable effects. One of my photographs taken with a VPK with a leaky bellows causing very unpredictable light effects is about to be published in a book. It would not have been published if those light effects had not happened.

William

 

 

 

[shirubadanieru]

I’ve had this in several digital Leicas when using old glass & shooting in instances where I got strong flare. I think it’s just how the light hits the lens and those kind of artifacts come out…nothing to worry about. The first time I saw it was on my M9 so I actually thought it could be something to do with the sensor but then same thing happened with M10 / M10M, and with several lenses as well. 

[LocalHero1953]

Sorry for my dumb question, but could you mark up your photo to show what it is that concerns you? Otherwise I don't see anything that I find particularly unusual. I see:

• Your two "wings", warm and cold, which appear to be just normal flare
• Within the warm wing, there is colour separation from one edge to the other, reddish at either edge, and yellowish in the middle.
• Within the cold wing there is a slightly mottled texture.
• Both wings have streaks aligned at about 045-275 degrees
• Across the whole image are small bokeh balls manifested as white outlines with less white centres, which appear to be normal highlight features in bokeh. (On my Thambar I can turn these into sold doughnuts if I put a bit of effort in).

What have I not seen, or what am I misunderstanding? I can't say I have seen the warm and cold wings often enough to notice, but if I did I would just put it down to flare because of the sun outside the frame - maybe I don't question it enough.

[pippy]

Sorry if I wasn't very clear in my earlier posts. I fully understand why there is flare.

Here are two magnified crops from within the flare wings - one from each area. I'm interested in knowing what has caused the concentric rings. These rings can only be seen in the area of the flare wings in this image and in no other image whatsoever;

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks in advance again.

Philip.

[pgk]

I'd hazard a guess that its a diffraction/interference effect of some description, perhaps due to dust illuminated by the flare? The flare is difficult to explain as it is not where I would expect to see it (its very ill-defined too) although as usual it is pivoted around the centre of the lens. Light paths through older uncoated lenses are probably unpredictable when there is significant light which is being reflected by surfaces (both glass and edges), then potentially intermingling and causing odd things to happen. I doubt that you will find any sort of definitive answer.

[LocalHero1953]

32 minutes ago, pippy said:

Sorry if I wasn't very clear in my earlier posts. I fully understand why there is flare.

Here are two magnified crops from within the flare wings - one from each area. I'm interested in knowing what has caused the concentric rings. These rings can only be seen in the area of the flare wings in this image and in no other image whatsoever;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks in advance again.

Philip.

Ah, I see. In any other circumstance I would have said dirt on the sensor or (M9) sensor degradation. But I wouldn't expect to see either wide open on a M262. 

 

[pop]

An idle speculation.

The crescent shaped flares are a result of the sun lying just beyond the field of view of the lens. As there is but one sun, the flares stem from the same light source, and one is reflected once more than the other.

Conceivably, the light causing those crescents is reflected off the wall of the barrel of the lens. Hence. it strikes the sensor at a very shallow angle, such that small dimples or specks on or in the sensor stack cause little round highlights.

se non è vero, è ben trovato, as they say. .-)

[ianman]

52 minutes ago, pippy said:

These rings can only be seen in the area of the flare wings in this image and in no other image whatsoever;

I suppose you have checked other images thoroughly... because as you mention M9 and those look pretty much the same as the corrosion marks I had on my images. 

[pop]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ianman:

look pretty much the same

I don't think so. All spots in this example appear to be circular with rings around them, possibly Newton rings or similar interference patterns. Actually, it's a bit hard to say because the 400% crop is a magnified view where much of the 'dimples' could be artefacts created by interpolation, and the JPEG processing might or might not have added to the effect.

In the M9 sensor, the corrosion affected contiguous areas which had the general appearance of worms.

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[M9reno]

Philip, at last I see what you mean, and I am unfortunately reminded of my M9 corrosion marks (looking like a little bubble with a nucleus)!  If you take a picture of clear sky defocused (lens at 1m) at f/16 can you still see them?  Or what do you see?