Black paint M6 TTLs (LHSA v Millennium)

[grahamc]

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Hi everyone 

Quick question about how the LHSA version black paint M6 TTL is considered , relative to the Millenium black paint ...  In terms of rarity   ?  

Which would you prefer ?

Both black paint of course although LHSA has the ‘advantage’ of a black dot (should that work for you) . I like them both . I think the lhsa has the standard advance lever but millennium has the m3/mp style 

For those familiar with these 2 variants down the years , which of the models mentioned do you think “should” be the higher price of the two ? Like everything they both seem to have shot up in the last few years. I’m finding the prices fairly random (sometimes LHSA advertised/sold higher, sometimes millennium advertised/sold higher) .

As mentioned in another post I’m vaguely beginning a hunt for a second film M and trying to narrow my Wishlist a little . 

thanks in advance  ! 

Edited August 24, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

https://www.cameraquest.com/lm6lhsa.htm
article that was approved for accuracy by LHSA at time of writing. 

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[madNbad]

When the M6 TTL Millennium (officially Black Lacquer) was introduced in 1999 it brought back both the brass top plate and a true black paint finish which hadn't been used since the end of the original M4 run. After years of the industrial dull black chrome finish, the gloss black paint was stunning. Many of these cameras were bought the stashed away. I bought one in the spring of 2012 from KEH were it had languished on their website for a couple of months. It arrived in unused condition with all of the documentation in the box. Even though I don't own it any longer, it is still the most stunning camera I ever owned. Here's a photo when it returned from a factory update:

 

 

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[Matlock]

Obviously we all have different tastes but I bought a M6 TTL Millennium in 2008 and sold, at a slight loss, about a year later. It never really appealed to me and I already had a Black Chrome M6 TTL and a MP3.

[grahamc]

18 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Obviously we all have different tastes but I bought a M6 TTL Millennium in 2008 and sold, at a slight loss, about a year later. It never really appealed to me and I already had a Black Chrome M6 TTL and a MP3.

Thanks for all of the detail. That’s a stunning camera.  
 

My original plan (albeit quite a loose one and price dependant etc) was to get one to pair with my titan TTL. In fact I saw the titan as a stepping stone to get to the dream black paint and then use the 2 choices for b&w / colour.
 

Since owning the titan my perspective has changed a little bit because I really like how I am not feeling obliged to baby it.  And the dull finish lends itself to that experience.  
 

So I’m kinda rethinking it a little even though they are clearly gorgeous.  The prices also seem to be getting our of control compared to even just 2 years ago 

[grahamc]

20 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Obviously we all have different tastes but I bought a M6 TTL Millennium in 2008 and sold, at a slight loss, about a year later. It never really appealed to me and I already had a Black Chrome M6 TTL and a MP3.

Interesting , thanks.  What didn’t you like about it then, as a TTL user ? 
 

I fear I might feel it a bit “blingy” in use although this could be all in my head.  As mentioned above I’ve loved the titan partly for its dull finish and that I’m not really that conscious of knocking it 

And I think feels quite a modest camera carrying it.  Would be interested why you favoured the chrome having bought what is for some the holy grail !

[derleicaman]

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On 8/24/2021 at 3:02 PM, grahamc said:

https://www.cameraquest.com/lm6lhsa.htm
article that was approved for accuracy by LHSA at time of writing. 

This is pretty accurate the story Stephen Gandy has on Cameraquest. Lots more that I can’t talk about. It was an almost four year ordeal to get the black paint camera realized. The first response from Leica was, “ why would you want black paint, when our black chrome finish is superior!” They just didn’t understand the appeal of a brassed black paint camera. Leica had also forgotten how to do the finish. They had to farm it out to a firm in Austria. Later black paint MP cameras actually have a better finish than ours and the Millennium. I started the project with Sonke Peters, and then Stefan Daniel. Stefan and I have been friends ever since, and we worked on several other LHSA specials together. Hammertone, MP3 and 50 Summilux ASPH retro and recently the 50 APO Summicron retro. Another hitch came right before production began. They didn’t have enough M6 cameras available, necessitating the switch to the TTL. I also specked the black dot for it. When the Leica CEO, HP Cohn saw the prototype I had at PMA, he looked at the black dot and said, “Bill, there is something wrong here!” I assured him the black dot was what I wanted. Finally, Leica came out with the Millennium just before the LHSA Black Paint, and some in leadership wanted to cancel. I said no, I had to much time and effort tied up in it. Good thing we didn’t as it sold quite well, and black paint became a standard finish again. 

[Danner]

@derleicaman Fascinating post, thank you.

"...Lots more that I can’t talk about..."

Please help yourself to a second glass of wine, and spill some of the beans

[grahamc]

20 hours ago, derleicaman said:

This is pretty accurate the story Stephen Gandy has on Cameraquest. Lots more that I can’t talk about. It was an almost four year ordeal to get the black paint camera realized. The first response from Leica was, “ why would you want black paint, when our black chrome finish is superior!” They just didn’t understand the appeal of a brassed black paint camera. Leica had also forgotten how to do the finish. They had to farm it out to a firm in Austria. Later black paint MP cameras actually have a better finish than ours and the Millennium. I started the project with Sonke Peters, and then Stefan Daniel. Stefan and I have been friends ever since, and we worked on several other LHSA specials together. Hammertone, MP3 and 50 Summilux ASPH retro and recently the 50 APO Summicron retro. Another hitch came right before production began. They didn’t have enough M6 cameras available, necessitating the switch to the TTL. I also specked the black dot for it. When the Leica CEO, HP Cohn saw the prototype I had at PMA, he looked at the black dot and said, “Bill, there is something wrong here!” I assured him the black dot was what I wanted. Finally, Leica came out with the Millennium just before the LHSA Black Paint, and some in leadership wanted to cancel. I said no, I had to much time and effort tied up in it. Good thing we didn’t as it sold quite well, and black paint became a standard finish again. 

Wow thanks for this back story, how interesting !  Especially about there not being enough M6 classics for the job.  Really appreciate this, and needless to say - thank you.. what a beautiful camera  ! 

[philipus]

I considered the LHSA and a few other black paint M6 cameras ten years ago before settling on the Millennium which I still own and use regularly. The reason I went for that one is that I have no connection to LHSA, and so that logo on the camera meant nothing to me. I felt however that I could relate to a camera that commemorated the shift to a new millennium. There were several things there that meant something to me, hope for the future etc (and not only the millennium bug...) and so I bought the Millennium when I found one. The previous owner had kept it on a shelf and it was entirely mint condition with all paperwork, boxes etc.

They are actually quite different cameras – the LHSA is from a user perspective akin to an M4 whereas the Millennium is an M3. I had just come from an M3 that kept failing on me and which I returned and I very much like the advance lever and the rewind thing. I personally find the engraving on the top plate more beautiful too. I don't see the point of adding Solms which the LHSA one has, it makes the engraving look unbalanced. And on then topic of little details like that, why add "Special Edition" on the LHSA? Just doesn't make sense to me.

I think the Millennium is a fantastic camera. I also have a black paint M4 (and a 1931 Leica II in black) and the paint is clearly very different. The M4's seems to have been applied in a thicker layer and the Millennium's is a lot more shiny. But the latter's paint is very durable, at least on mine. It took me a good few years of constant use before any bracing showed through. And after a little while of use the paint stops being shiny actually. It's not as muted as the M4 BP but it's far from how it looked when new.

I can't advise on price but have seen that they've gone up a lot in the last few years. I had originally thought about an MP which ten years ago sold for, I think, about 4000 Euro. A Millennium for 1800 Euro was therefore a steal it seemed to me. Later on I realised that the Millennium is in some ways a better camera, since it has TTL flash metering, and a prettier camera too, since it has a painted rear door. These are of course possibly unnecessary or silly things depending on one's point of view. I find that the Millennium works amazingly well with the SF-24D. I also changed to a black dot at some point, which I like a lot more. 

The Millennium is also a worse camera than the MP because the viewfinder suffers quite badly (in my experience) from white-out. Leica fixed this for me and it is flare-proof now. In fact my M4 flares more often (but still exceptionally rarely). It is also less user-friendly because the frame counter is black. The MP's is white and so a lot easier to see.