R Lens Bokeh

[Shawn30]

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So do the R lens’s have a unique bokeh? 
I’ve been wanting to get a MF lens for my CL & SL and some of the R lens’s are pretty affordable. I’ve been looking at the R image thread and I’m noticing that the bokeh seems different from the M and L mount lens’s. I’m thinking it’s because many of the images in the thread are scanned?
How would a, 50mm SC R lens compare to 50 SC M lens?
 

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[dkCambridgeshire]

Some of the R lenses are the same design as their M equivalents - but the equivalent R lenses are more telecentric ... You might consider trying to acquire the Leica Pocket Book 8th Edition which documents all the R and M lenses manufactured up until c. 2011 ... together with their performance characteristics and MTF graphs ... BUT ... the book is out of print and only available secondhand at a premium price . Not sure exactly what you mean by SC?  Single cam? Single coated? Summicron? There are two basic designs of the R 50/2 Summicron. There are four different types of M 50/2 Summicron (5 if both types of the Mk I are included). The Mk I 50/2 S'cron R has similar performance to the 1969 M 50/2 Summicron Mk III; the Mk II 50/2 S'cron R has similar performance to the 1979 M 50/2 Summicron Mk IV.  You should consider accessing third party comparison tests outside the forum ... where the lenses have been reviewed tested one reputable reviewer. Try Flickr where there are likely more images to look at. For use on your CL and SL a Mk I S'cron R could be a good buy and a lot less £$€ than its M equivalent ... its only drawback is its Series 6 filter thread but Series VI filters are easy to source. A lens' "bokeh" can be a somewhat subjective topic and some 'opinions' ref same can be rather OTT. Suffice to say that all the R and M Summicrons will perform well on your CL and SL. You'll need adapters; have a look at URTH adapters; I now prefer non-smart URTH to Novoflex lens adapters. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by dkCambridgeshire

[adan]

There is no consistent or unique bokeh across all R lenses. Too many different focal lengths, from too many different designers, across too many decades.

Too many "oddball" bokehs among R lenses - e.g. 21mm f/4 Super-Angulon-R (designed by Schneider-Kreuznach) which only has 4 aperture blades and thus produces "square" bokeh, or 180mm f/3.4 APO-Telyt, which was originally designed for military use with maximum clarity and resolution as the goal (intelligence officers don't care how pretty the background blur is) and has rather "busy" bokeh.

In other words, you can't count on the bokeh of other R lenses (35mm....80mm/90mm/100mm/135mm....) to guide you in how the 50mm bokeh(s) will look.

In the early R years, the design of the 50mm f/2 Summicron lenses leap-frogged between M and R versions. After 1979 both used the identical optical design in different mounts.

1957 - 50mm Summicron v.2 for M
1964 - 50mm Summicron v.1 for R
1969 - 50mm Summicron v.3 for M
1976 - 50mm Summicron v.2 for R (last version designed)
1979 - 50mm Summicron v.4 for M (identical to 1976 R v.2, just a different mount, still in use today).

So any 50mm Summicron-R made after 1976 will have bokeh identical to any 50mm Summicron-M made after 1979.

I don't shoot a lot of 50mm or R lenses these days, but if it's any help, here are some bokeh samples at f/2 from a 50mm Summicron-R v.2 of about 1988 vintage (on a Canon 5D2, so no scanning involved) from a few years back. This is very consistent with my experience using a current 50mm Summicron-M v.4/5 (same glass). Fair amount of bright-ring bokeh and doubled blurs at least at these subject and background distances.

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[crony]

Hi, a few R bokeh samples (SONY A7R2 - LEITZ Makro-Elmarit 2,8/60 ; f 2,8) :

 

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Sorry, this is my shortest R lens. For the teles, I do not have M equivalents ... 😉

 

[Shawn30]

Thank you for the replies, very informative. 

crony, the R 60 mm and 100mm Macro's are stunners to be sure

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I had very good experience with the bokeh in the R lenses, but I mostly used the 35mm and 50mm summiluxes, and the 100 and 180 APO Elmarits. I think the 50mm Summilux E60 is a standout in that regard, as is the 100mm APO Macro Elmarit and 180mm APO Elmarit R. I also found the bokeh to be very nice in the 28-90mm 2.8-4.5 Vario Elmar. Though it was a bit slow on the long end, it had lovely bokeh in the portraits. Leica lenses in general tend to have neutral or good bokeh. As to whether it is better than the M? I think that is really a case by case thing, and as Andy said, a lot of the formulas were used interchangeably.

[farnz]

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Here's an example of smooth out of focus "bokeh" from the 80/1.4 Summilux-R, which is a superb lens in my opinion.

This is Patterson, a local jeweller, showing me some of his favourite pieces.

Pete.

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Edited August 25, 2021 by farnz

[crony]

Hi, a few more bokeh samples (SONY A7R2 - LEITZ Elmarit-R 2,8/135 f 2,8 uncropped to show background rendering) :

 

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[Farbenkreis]

R 35 Summicron:

 

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[jaapv]

On 8/22/2021 at 8:41 PM, Shawn30 said:

So do the R lens’s have a unique bokeh? 
I’ve been wanting to get a MF lens for my CL & SL and some of the R lens’s are pretty affordable. I’ve been looking at the R image thread and I’m noticing that the bokeh seems different from the M and L mount lens’s. I’m thinking it’s because many of the images in the thread are scanned?
How would a, 50mm SC R lens compare to 50 SC M lens?
 

Actually, some R lenses are optically virtually identical to their M counterparts, especially the longer ones. You have to do some research to make sure you are comparing different designs. The Summicron 50 R version 2 is identical to the Summicron 50 M version 4, for instance.

Edit - just saw Andy's post  

[OR120]

R Lens Bokeh. This is an older shot of mine - using the SL2-S with a 80 R f/1.4 Summilux. I also have the M 75 f1/4 Summilux but nine times out of ten I end up using the 80 R Summilux.  In the Leica lens world - a used 80 R Lux is very affordable.

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Edited August 26, 2021 by OR120
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[frame-it]

SL2-S + Elmarit-R 180mm v2

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[davidmknoble]

@Shawn30, any of the R APO designated lenses are great with bokeh (90 f/2, 180 f/2.8, 240 f/2.8) and some of the newer lenses that are non APO (50 cron v2, 90 elmarit v2).  The 80 f/1.4 is made for bokeh and similar to the 75 lux for the M mount.  In my opinion, the bokeh from the Elmarit (28 v1, 35 v2) are good in the 1 meter range, but for near infinity, there isn’t strong bokeh because it is an f/2.8.  Your best bet is to search flickr or review the R lens images post in this section and study the lenses and photos others have made.  

The other difference is that the newest Summicron and Summiluxs in the M series are a decade or more newer than R lenses.  Comparing the previous versions of these lenses to the R series is probably a more fair comparison.  The newest M lenses out perform (sharpness and bokeh) the R lenses with the exception being the APO lenses.  What I like most about the R series is the color rendition.  The colors are incredibly tuned and some have indicated tuned for slide film.  I typically turn my saturation down just a tad from these lenses.  At high f/stops they still draw really well even after 20 or more years.

My opinion…

[Shawn30]

I picked up a Summicron-R 50mm and the R 80-200 4.5

I agree about the color rendition, particularly with the 80-200. The warm 3D nature of the Leica binoculars and spotting scopes are what drew me to Leica photography (they are truly amazing). The only lens's I've found (so far) that have that warm look are the R lens's. 

I've heard that M lens's have more aperture blades than the R and that leads to a less busy/nervous bokeh. 

 

[adan]

3 hours ago, Shawn30 said:

I picked up a Summicron-R 50mm and the R 80-200 4.5

I agree about the color rendition, particularly with the 80-200.

if that is actually the 80-200 f/4.5, it is interesting that that is a Minolta lens design (from the era when Leitz was borrowing or swapping a lot of tech with Minolta - original CL, R3 and R4 cameras, R lenses 16mm, 24mm, 500mm Mirror-Telyt, etc.)

But indeed, in my brief experience with that lens (on a film SL, ca. 2004), I did note how well Leitz and Minolta had - revised - the color rendition to match the Leitz lenses.

[Shawn30]

1 hour ago, adan said:

if that is actually the 80-200 f/4.5, it is interesting that that is a Minolta lens design (from the era when Leitz was borrowing or swapping a lot of tech with Minolta - original CL, R3 and R4 cameras, R lenses 16mm, 24mm, 500mm Mirror-Telyt, etc.)

But indeed, in my brief experience with that lens (on a film SL, ca. 2004), I did note how well Leitz and Minolta had - revised - the color rendition to match the Leitz lenses.

I also picked up the Leica VARIO-ELMAR-R 75-200 for something like $75.00 and it is the Minolta lens. Because of it's age, it has CA, and flaring issues. But it also has great colors and different look that I really like. My 80-200 is a later ROM version and I suspect has improved coatings. For me at least, I have trouble getting sharp images with these two lens's handheld even with the SL2 IBIS. I need to use a tripod to get consistently sharp images.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Shawn30
Clarification