Is it worth buying analogue in 2021

[Guest]

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56 minutes ago, ianman said:

This makes sense... a bit. But the issue is not the production line, which for the M10 I’m making an informed guess is largely over now, but the availability of spare parts which must be managed separately. I agree with Peter and would have hoped that they had a good stock of spare parts available for repairs. Anyway, we don’t even know why his camera is in for repair anyway, it may not be related to electronics at all.

It's electronics again, this time it's there for problems with the formatting of SD cards in camera, it began to refuse to do that task. Solution is the replacement of the main circuit board apparently and this is what Leica didn't have on their shelves, maybe too many had gone bad before my camera arrived there a month or so ago, who knows? Anyway it's been awaiting new stock of the circuit board to arrive at Wetzlar. It was originally scheduled for repair June 6th, so it's been a while for whatever reason.

Other trips "home" were for initial rangefinder missalignment, sensor mount slippage, Foto's /WiFi connection problems and shutter release  problems.......there was one other repair too right almost at new that I now forget the reason for. Despite all of this it is still my favorite digital M "in the hand". I do dislike most of it's electronic "enhancements" over the previous MD and think that they were unnecessary and perhaps proved somewhat troublesome, but when it's been working as it should for me it's a delightful camera to go out with.I'm looking forward to it's return.

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[Matlock]

52 minutes ago, petermullett said:

Despite all of this it is still my favorite digital M "in the hand". I do dislike most of it's electronic "enhancements" over the previous MD and think that they were unnecessary and perhaps proved somewhat troublesome, but when it's been working as it should for me it's a delightful camera to go out with.I'm looking forward to it's return.

I agree Peter, I have a M10-R which in many ways is a better camera but the M10-D is still my "go to" camera. Luckily both my M10-D and R have performed impeccably from the word go.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Matlock said:

I agree Peter, I have a M10-R which in many ways is a better camera but the M10-D is still my "go to" camera. Luckily both my M10-D and R have performed impeccably from the word go.

Sure, I guess for many people the M10-R is a "better" camera, but then this is the new world order with digital things, cameras included.There will always be a "better" version around the corner and seemingly so these days in a number of months rather than years. It's a game of Digital Musical Chairs in which chairs aren't removed so the game can never end. This in large measure, ( to return to the original premise of this thread ), is why I am deliberately stepping back and returning to analogue /film for my personal photography and have decided for that work to try to ignore and/or rationalise better the all too frequently re-occurring digital temptations. Though, as said before I might well need to find a Leica M AA meeting, I think they'll have to lay out a few more chairs.

Edited August 11, 2021 by petermullett

[ktmrider2]

Sure hope so as I have acquired a 3f made in 1952 and a mint 50th anniversary M4 in black chrome in the last ten months.  Am looking to sell my MP240 due to lack of use as I carry a X100f when I want a digital travel camera.

 

[MikeMyers]

I'd like to ask a slightly different question here, that ties into this discussion.   The official title is "Is it worth buying analogue in 2021".  I think most people here think of buying a new camera.  But there is a third choice, buying used.

I dug out my ancient M3, and have been using it on and off for several months now (mostly off) instead of my new M10.  I'm pretty certain in any way I compare them, the M10 is a "better" camera than the M3.  So many things I can list to explain why.  But, when I walk around with the viewfinder of the M3 in front of my right eye, shown seemingly at full size, the combination means I am seeing the world naturally with both eyes, and the frame line tells me how much of the world is being captured.  As far as I know, the M3 is the only Leica with a viewfinder like that.  My M10 is also usually showing me all sorts of information I thought was so useful to taking a photo.  The M3 shows me none of that.   All I see, and all I concentrate on, is the image - ....and also the rangefinder at times.

If I were buying a new Leica now, and I could have my choice of anything, I suspect I would want a brand new M3.  I've never seen an M6, but from what I've read, it's wonderful - but it doesn't have that huge viewfinder window.

I'm now 78.  I'm thinking what I'm going through is a phase, and as happened several months ago, I'll go back to my M10 and thoroughly enjoy using it.  But if I'm being honest here, I "think" differently when using one than with the other.  With my M10 I am involved in all the digital being displayed in front of me.  I guess I can turn that off, but haven't tried.  With the M3, seeing through both my eyes, the frame lines become a guide and the rangefinder becomes a "fine tuner", and the camera becomes part of me.......    up to the point where the shutter goes click.  Then I'm abruptly moved back to the real world, with no way to verify that I captured what I wanted.  If I use the camera for many months, I think that confidence will return....    but when I was shooting my M10, I turned off the rear display so it was just like shooting film.

There's one last thing to add here.  I watched a video today comparing the latest Monochrom Leica to a Leica film camera shooting tri-x film.  They were constantly showing results, including side by side comparisons.  The film camera showed more grain, but also showed more detail in the shadows.  Curious, but not convinced, I just ordered some Tri-X from Amazon, which will arrive in a day or two.

 

To get to the O.P.'s question, is it worth buying analog in 2021, as I see it, the single biggest factor is time.  For me, my digital photos will be available to me as soon as I get home.  My analog photos will be available to me in about a week as developed film, and then I'll scan my favorite images. (If I still had a darkroom, things would be different.). I honestly don't know how I feel about this.  To me, digital is guaranteed - I will get what I wanted, if I don't mess up, and if I want, I'll "see" the result immediately.  Film means do my best, and at least for a while, cross my fingers for luck.    .......and one other comparison for the O.P. - value.  Anyone buying a good film Leica now, who sells it in some number of years, will probably sell it for more than he paid for it.  On the other hand, every time Leica makes a new digital version, previous cameras lose value.   If I took my own advice, I would buy the nicest Leica M6 (without the ttl electronics), and know that it will be worth more and more every year, not less and less.

All of this IMHO, meaning feel free to tell me I'm losing my mind for thinking this way......   As I see things, maybe the question should be "Is it worth buying digital in 2021?"

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by MikeMyers

[Guest Nowhereman]

Mike - It seems to me that considering whether a to buy a digital or film camera on the basis of which will be worth more in the future relative to the purchase price is bassackwards: if one needs to decide between the two, the main concern should be whether one wants to shoot film or digital — or both.
_______________________________________
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Edited August 24, 2021 by Nowhereman

[MikeMyers]

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1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

if one needs to decide between the two, the main concern should be whether one wants to shoot film or digital — or both.

After shooting only digital for the past 20 or 30 years, and re-evaluating things, I don't know what I want to shoot.  I just send in my second roll of B&W film for processing, and the third roll will be finished by next Monday (a week away) when I go back to get my negatives.  I don't know where all this is going to lead.

To my mind, unlike digital, I don't think there will be much difference if I continue to shoot my old M3, or if I spend five thousand or so dollars on a brand new M-A.  Actually, I think the M3 is a better choice, which doesn't make sense to me - as the M-A is better if I still want to use my wider angle lenses - but only *IF* I also start to using film for routine photography, as opposed to my current "testing".  

My answer to your question is I want to shoot both, and would select one or the other depending on what it is I'm photographing, and why......   along with film still feeling "experimental" to me, while digital feels that it is now a part of me.

[Vlad Soare]

Digital photography is great. I take a lot of digital pictures, for instance when I need to:

• post something quickly on the internet (e.g. to ask a question on a forum, like "what's this thing on the back of my camera")
• send it via WhatsApp to friends and family
• post it on Facebook
• ensure I remember something (e.g. photograph a product label, or a book cover, or a shop's opening hours, etc. instead of taking notes)
• document something (e.g. pre-existent damage on a rental car when I pick it up)

In all these cases I use my iPhone, which for all intents and purposes is vastly superior to any digital camera, including a Leica M. It does all a digital camera can do (and even more than a digital M can do), while being small enough to fit in a pocket. And it's always with me.

I love digital photography. It has changed our lives to an extent that was unimaginable twenty years ago. But I never do it for pleasure. Its strictly utilitarian to me. When I take digital photos I do it for a very specific purpose, not just because I feel like taking pictures. As such, I see no reason whatsoever why I should buy an M10, as long all the things I ask from digital photography are done so exquisitely well by a mobile phone.

When I take pictures for no other reason than my own pleasure, I shoot film. And since it's about pleasure, in this case I do want a special camera, one that makes me enjoy every second spent with it. Which is why I had no qualms about buying an M-A.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Vlad Soare

[Helge]

I was shooting almost only film (R3, R9 and Rolleiflex 2.8) up to 2018. I‘ve got my 1st serious digital camera by then, the M10.

I decided this year now that it would be a shame not to use those great M lenses in film, so I’ve got an MP now in addition.

It was the best what I’ve could have done for my photography, I like them both (and still the R9 and the Rollei).

However since there are so many great films out there from Kodak, Ilford and Adox it is a joy to do film and look at great slides and photos.

[MikeMyers]

I usually hold off on expensive purchases until I am certain it is the right thing to do, for me.  I held off on a replacement for my M8.2 until a year or so ago, when I went for the M10....   and since then, there have been NO improvements to the mechanics of the M10, only to the "electronics".

I now find myself very seriously considering the M-A, for around $5K.  It's not really a risk - I'm sure I'll be able to sell the M-A for what I paid for it, if not more, if I don't like it, but I'm struggling with the question of why I should spend $5,000 for an M-A when I'm currently using my M-3, and I've also got a M-2, neither of which have any electronics, and as far as I can tell, both are still working fine despite their age.  If I want to shoot with a 35, I can use my M2.  

To be honest, if I was going to visit my brother's family in a month or so, or visit friends in Colorado, it would be VERY tempting to just bring my M10, and have all my recent photos on my laptop by the end of the day.  Unless something happens in the USA that makes electrical power unavailable, the digital Leica is all I need, but my facts don't always match my emotions, and I have ages of wonderful feelings towards shooting film.  

I can tell myself "it's only money" and order the M-A and be done with it......  That's a first step.

 

[logan2z]

11 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

I can tell myself "it's only money" and order the M-A and be done with it......  That's a first step.

That's what I did in 2017 and have zero regrets.  I've loved every minute shooting with my M-A. 

I bought an M4 a couple of years ago and love it as well. It's kind of nice having a vintage and modern M film camera - sort of the best of both worlds.  

I say go for the M-A while you still can. Who knows how long Leica will continue to make them 

[MikeMyers]

@logan2z - if I could order a brand new Leica M3, or the brand new Leica M-A, which would be the better choice?

Or, to ask differently, what possible advantage might there be in ordering a new M-A when I already have both a M2 an an M3 ?

Other than the viewfinder, isn't everything else essentially the same, other than Leica's desire to reduce the cost of their new camera?  Part of me feels that I would be spending $5,000 or so to get a cheaper version of what I already have.

[logan2z]

4 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

@logan2z - if I could order a brand new Leica M3, or the brand new Leica M-A, which would be the better choice?

Or, to ask differently, what possible advantage might there be in ordering a new M-A when I already have both a M2 an an M3 ?

Other than the viewfinder, isn't everything else essentially the same, other than Leica's desire to reduce the cost of their new camera?  Part of me feels that I would be spending $5,000 or so to get a cheaper version of what I already have.

Having a brand new camera that only you've used and that comes with a warranty are some of the advantages of a new M-A.  Of course if you could buy a brand new M3 with a warranty then that might be a nice option too, but you can't.  Having a full complement of framelines is another nice advantage of the M-A, depending on which focal lengths you use.

I don't really see/feel any quality differences between my M4 and M-A so I wouldn't say that the M-A has had any obvious cost cutting measures applied to it and is somehow a cheaper version of the earlier Leica M film cameras.

All of this said, I'm not trying to encourage you to spend $5K on an M-A when you've already got two perfectly good film bodies that you are happy with.  The M-A was my first Leica film body, I'm not sure I would have bought it if I already had two others.

[MikeMyers]

@logan2z - the part of me that thinks logically, rather than with emotions, is screaming at me to use what I've got for a while before I spend so much money.  I did find an M-A, in stock, that I could have here in a matter of days, and yes, it's great fun to open the package and find a brand new Leica inside, and if I didn't already have two film Leica's that seem to work fine, maybe I would jump at the chance....     Shooting film might get me better images.  Might.  If I was going somewhere to take photos, I don't know if I would leave my M10 at home, let alone leave my Nikons at home.  The best answer I can think of, is to start using my M3 and M2, and see how things work out, and whether I'm pleased or frustrated.  You guys are a wonderful/terrible help, depending on if I'm considering emotions or logic.  

[ianman]

7 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

If I was going somewhere to take photos, I don't know if I would leave my M10 at home

This is interesting and IMHO is the crux of the matter. You should ask yourself why you wouldn’t leave you M10 at home!

[MikeMyers]

That's easy to answer.  The M10 is a "sure thing".  It's going to take me a while to build back my confidence in film photography.  I guess for right now, I need to see that my images from my M3, scanned with the Plustek, in both b&w and color, are at least just as good (preferably better) than what I get from my M10.

(Unless I start developing my own b&w film, it's also going to be annoying to have to wait a week for getting my negatives developed, rather than working on the images the same day I take them.  If I shoot in color, I will always have this "issue".)

So, bottom line, if I go on a one week trip, as I often do, and I want to send out photos from that trip while I'm still away, my only choice is to shoot digital, meaning I bring my M10 with me along with my film camera.

I think you're right - it is "the crux of the matter", and I don't have a good answer yet.  

I'm now shooting (only) with my M3, and yesterday I got my M2 dusted off, and will start using it with my 35mm lens.  Sadly, I used to "think" in 50mm.  I've gotten to where 35mm is "normal" and my 50mm feels like a telephoto - I'm always moving backwards.  That's an issue inside my brain, not with the camera and lens, and I've been trying to "frame" the photos I want in 50mm - but again, I'm always moving backwards, or feeling "limited".  

[Vlad Soare]

30 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

I guess for right now, I need to see that my images from my M3, scanned with the Plustek, in both b&w and color, are at least just as good (preferably better) than what I get from my M10.

They won't be. If that's what you're after, then you can give up right now and just continue using the M10. Which is OK. There's nothing wrong with that.
No film can match the resolution, or speed, or colour gamut, or dynamic range of the M10. Or of any other high-end digital camera for that matter.

Film images are beautiful in their own right. I love the grain of a B/W film, I love the "grain" (for lack of a better word, because it isn't actually grain) of colour films, I love how the grain (or whatever it's called in the case of colour films) is variable, less in the focus plane, more in the out of focus planes, less in detailed areas, more in uniform areas... I love the slightly inaccurate colours of colour film, as opposed to the perfectly lifelike, perfectly accurate colours of digital, which paradoxically look artificial to me precisely because they're so perfect... And I love the process, I love working with chemicals, I love the uncertainty, the joy of removing the film from the tank and seeing what I've got... I like to know that the final image is completely, 100%, the result of my skill, not that of a computer chip and a piece of software.

That's why you shoot film. Not because it gives you better images than digital. It doesn't. It never will. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Vlad Soare

[MikeMyers]

Thanks for taking the time to write that.  After reading it, I don't see much of a need to order an M-A, and I realize that much of what I do needs to be done with digital.  I still feel that as an artist, there is a place for film in my photography, and I already have two of the best Leica cameras to accomplish that.  I see film as a way to capture "art", not "reality", and it's the other way 'round for digital.  In other words, to me, there IS a place for analog in today's world, but I already have what I need.

I used to have a full darkroom, with everything I needed, including trays for making 16" x 20" prints.  Now I live in a tiny 600 square foot condo in South Beach, with barely enough room to turn around.  I expect at some point I will be able to develop my own B&W film, and I already have everything I need except the chemicals, but I have no way of ever setting up a darkroom again.

Regardless of what camera I use, to post an image here so you can view it, I have to do "digital".  There's no way around it.  

2 hours ago, Vlad Soare said:

I like to know that the final image is completely, 100%, the result of my skill, not that of a computer chip and a piece of software.

Without converting my condo to a photo studio, a lot of my work will be the result of my skill WITH a computer chip and especially WITH a piece of software.

.....or, to put it another way, I need to compromise.

For now though, what I need is to start doing my photography with film, especially black&white film, and learn how to do it well.  If that happens, I can add "color" to the process.  This will all be in addition to my digital photography, not instead of.  

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[Jon Warwick]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

It's going to take me a while to build back my confidence in film photography.  I guess for right now, I need to see that my images from my M3, scanned with the Plustek, in both b&w and color, are at least just as good (preferably better) than what I get from my M10. 

I understand what you’re saying, but in terms of “at least just as good (preferably better)” that’s a tough one. Many things about digital are technically very good, including the resolution etc. My personal approach is can the “look” of BOTH film and digital give me something I like? ….or do I really prefer the output of one over the other? If I really prefer the look of the output from film, then I need to shoot that ….or at least learn how to more closely mimic the “film look” in post (which is achievable in my experience, but I find some digital camera outputs are better as a starting point here than others. AND also some subject matters can be much harder to mimic, in my case I find some portraits taken on digital simply impossible to get to a film look).

Edited August 25, 2021 by Jon Warwick

[grahamc]

If you are a film + digital shooter I think it’s a very reasonable consideration (when thinking about new-to-us purchases) to think which items are likely to increase in price in the future and which may decrease. For me at least, since I know some kit may be sitting on the shelf for long periods of time as perhaps not a preferred daily use piece of kit (but a loved one nonetheless).  This is also why in my very small ‘collection’ of 3 M’s I’m currently swapping out from 2 digital and 1 film , to 2 film and one digital.  The decreasing-in-value one (digital) can get used daily as I’m not that fond of having something sitting on the shelf depreciating.  
 

Admittedly this theory is irrelevant for people with already more digital cameras but that’s how I view it with my M’s currently considering they are expensive items to acquire 
 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by grahamc