Leica MA: Adapting Lenses question (LTM/L39, Russian L39)...etc. What fits and works with Leica M film bodies?

[Cayenne]

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Hello all,

Well, I've been shooting a year on my first Leica the M10M.  And am blown away in love with it.

However, there are some times I want to shoot color.

I thought about it and thought about doing film rather than another Leica digital. I figure as long as they keep.making 35mm film, a pure mechanical Leica film camera will outlast any digital sensor bodies I buy now.

So, I have a deal on a Leica MA that is is great shape...a 9+ they rate it.

I know I can use my current M lenses on the MA that  I use on my M10M.

I"m just not sure what all other lens mount types I can find that will adapt to and rangefinder couple with the MA.  

I"m reading that pretty much all LTM or L39 (these are synonymous terms, right?) can be adapted to work with the M mount MA camera, is this correct?

I've read even goggle lenses will adapt to the MA.

One question I have is what about Russian L39 lenses like Jupiters and the Industar lenses (61?), and others.  I thought I'd read that some if not all of the Russian L39 lenses had slightly different flanges or something that make them non-compatible directly hooking onto older Leica LTM cameras.  

But will some/any/all work with L39 to M adapters on my MA?

 

I know I'm dabbling with sacrilege suggesting non-Leica glass on a Leica body, but I know others do it, and for the price I really really like experimenting with some of these old vintage lenses, they just give looks I like to capture.

Will M39 or M42 lenses adapt to the MA?  

I would really like to try something wild like the older M39 Helios 40 lens, the 85mm f/1.5 swirly bokeh monster on my M10M and the MA should I get it.  I'm really wanting to get lenses I can use on both.

I know with the M10M I can get  a step up ring to put on the M39 to a M32 and then use a M42 adapter to my M10M....but is there a way to adapt these lenses to the MA too?

I can use the back or the Visioflex on the M10M, but not an option on film.

 

So, can someone help me out and give me some links, suggestions or a primer on adapting lenses to the Leica M film bodies before I drop the hammer on the MA, so I can know what my options are going forward?

 

Thank you all in advance!!

 

cayenne

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[Ecar]

LTM (aka L39) lenses will work - and most of them will couple with the RF - on any M camera with an adapter ring.

Good adapter rings are important to avoid focussing frustration. If you want to use LTM lenses on the M10M - and use the EVF/LV - make sure that the adapter fully covers the 6-bit sensor on the body flange, else the camera will tell you that it can't detect a lens and the screen will shut down. 

M39 or M42 lenses were designed primarily for reflex cameras: they will mount on an M body with an adapter, but without RF coupling. A Helios 40 will be usable only on your M10M with EVF/LV. A full conversion may be possible, but that's an entirely different (and expensive) game, as it would require replacing the original helicoid. 

FSU lenses can be hit-and-miss: most will need to be adjusted, and even then, there's no guarantee that they will focus properly across the range. If you really want one, the Industar-61 L/D is cheap, surprisingly usable, easy to service and generally not too bad in terms of focus. 

I'd start with LTM Leitz or Nikkor/Canon lenses. There's a huge choice out there.

[a.noctilux]

Ecar pointed to the right way.

I can add that with digital M and liveview, testing an unknow lens is simple and quick.

In my multiple Canon (LTM lenses 28/35/50/135), they are quite reliable and good to complement Leitz/Leica lenses.

My Jupiters are 2/3 good enough, J3/8 are good in coupling and results, but J9 not coupling well to Leica M RF but in EVF/LV's use J3 stellar results.

[Stuart Richardson]

If you want to shoot color (especially color slide), I think you might have a nicer time using a camera with a meter. The MA has no meter. Which M body you use does not really make a huge difference if you are shooting film, so if you are open to used, you might do well to look at an M6, which is a great camera with a functioning meter and otherwise fully mechanical operation. If the battery runs out, it works just like the MA...with the bonus that you always have a functioning meter if you want one. An MP would be another. Personally I think the M7 was the best film M, as the stepless AE shutter is perfect for slides and it has the quietest shutter of them all, as the slow speeds are electronically controlled. It would also be the most similar to your M10M in interface (same finder style, for the most part). The only kick with the M7 is that it is more prone to electronic issues than earlier M's, for obvious reasons. I think the trade-off is worth it, in this sense, but if you don't, the M6 or MP are very good choices.

As for the lenses, there are many vintage Leica, Canon and Nikon lenses for Leica thread mount and M mount that will be easier to adapt to an M body. When you are shooting film, the biggest issue is generally focus and rangefinder calibration. It is much harder to dial in because you cannot check your files quickly or easily, and you do not have an EVF to rely on. Focus shift is also a bigger issue in older lenses, and it can be a bit maddening to deal with. If you are looking for an old Leica lens with crazy bokeh and a vintage palette, the 50mm 1.5 summarit is a good choice (also the most dense/heavy lens for its size...beautiful circular iris, fast and low contrast with a lot of glow, but still has sharpness. Usually needs calibration to focus accurately). For a more general purpose lens, the collapsible summicrons are fun to use and have a beautiful look, while still being quite practical and sharp enough for most use.

[a.noctilux]

Stuart, I'm (was) M6/MP user and thousands of good kodachrome slides from them, I trust you and M6/MP meters.

Now, I'm happy with M-A meterless with 'out of camera metering' in one pocket.

 

...

As my wife never accepted the red LED in M VF, so she always used M5 for some reason, for decades.

I understand the red LED 'syndrome' much later, so now I know that everybody can behave differently concerning the red LED in viewfinder.

For me MP/M6 without battery IS NOT the same as M4/M-A , I respect those who think that of course.

 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Of course. If one consciously chooses not to have an internal meter and that is the way they like to work, I certainly think that is just fine. I mostly shoot 4x5 and 8x10 these days, so I am quite aware of the appeal. But for someone who sounds like they are mostly used to shooting digital cameras with meters and have never used a film Leica, I think that trying a metered M is a good first step. Color negative and B&W with a incident meter work very well, but I personally find that metering for slides benefits from having a reflective option, as the contrast range is so small and it can be difficult to meter for the exact light with an incident meter if you cannot place yourself in it. With the center-weighted meter in the M bodies it is pretty easy to put it between the light and shadow (for example, the border between shade and sun) to get an average reading. If you are in shade and shooting into sun or in sun and shooting into shade, it can be a bit tricky to get a good reading on incident unless you have a lot of experience. (I speak from experience, as my 8x10 slides are probably about 30-40 dollars a shot these days once shipping, taxes and chemical costs are accounted for, and I do it all myself...making mistakes is costly! I find combining the incident reading with a spot meter gets me the best results...) In any case, perhaps it is just this stuff that is on my mind, but I think having the MA as a first film Leica is kind of like buying a Ferrari as your first car. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but it does seem like a big step.

[wlewisiii]

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The problem with FSU lenses is that they made their LTM Jupiter lenses to the Zeiss flange to film plane distance rather than the Leica distance. This however, is usually masked by DOF on many lenses by F4 or by a shorter focal length. My J12 35/2.5 works fine on my M240. So too does my Industar 22 50/3.5 "Elmarski" as I call it. The J-8 50/2 wide open can be off however. 

Other vintage brands: Canon, Nikon, Chiyoko (Minolta's old name) and many others are as good if not better than the classic lenses from Leica for much less money. 

Modern lenses from Cosina Voigtlander are exquistite as well - I have the 35/1.7 aspherical Ultron in LTM and the 50/1.5 Nokton in LTM and both are frankly as good as any of the Leica lenses I've owned over the years. 

One of the compelling reasons for me to buy my M240 is to own and use LTM lenses of all sorts. I have a handful and hope to get as many more as possible over time. 

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[Danner]

Of course LTM lens adapt to the M mount with an adapter, my comment is to buy quality adapters, as there are cheap units out there that result in rangefinder mis-calibration.  The Leica adapters of great, of course, and the Rayqual brand are trusted (by me).

[Phil_P]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

 I think you might have a nicer time using a camera with a meter. The MA has no meter.

Please excuse a very basic question and slightly off topic, but if one puts eg a  ND filter on then I am presuming an additional advantage is  internal metering will take account of that so no additional filter adjustments necessary?  Have been tempted recently by the OP's idea of using the M10M and then having just film for more deliberate slower pace color rather than digital. Been driving myself mad between biting the bullet on an MA or MP.  Erring towards the  MA and really forcing myself to think and relearn about exposure and back to basics.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Phil_P

[spydrxx]

Having used an M4 for 43 years, and an M6 for 2,  and most recently an M2 for the last 2 years, I'd encourage you to get a meterless body and a handheld meter which has not only reflective reading capability but also incident light capability. Not only will you have great flexibility in metering your subject, but also, if you shoot a lot, develop a sense of lighting that may allow you to go meterless using the sunny 16 guidelines (or whatever is appropriate for where you live). It took me about 2 years of using an MR-4 meter, and a year or so with a primarily incident meter to feel comfortable using Sunny 16, and I'd periodically test my judgement against meter readings to validate or modify my judgement in various scenes. But in the end, it was well worth it, both for B&W and color slides. I found that adding a half stop for B&W and subtracting same for color slides gave me best results.

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, Phil_P said:

Please excuse a very basic question and slightly off topic, but if one puts eg a  ND filter on then I am presuming an additional advantage is  internal metering will take account of that so no additional filter adjustments necessary?  Have been tempted recently by the OP's idea of using the M10M and then having just film for more deliberate slower pace color rather than digital. Been driving myself mad between biting the bullet on an MA or MP.  Erring towards the  MA and really forcing myself to think and relearn about exposure and back to basics.

Yes, the Leica cameras meter through the lens and off the shutter curtain, so they take the filter into account. Certain other cameras like the Mamiya 7 do not and need adjustment.

[Cayenne]

6 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If you want to shoot color (especially color slide), I think you might have a nicer time using a camera with a meter. The MA has no meter. Which M body you use does not really make a huge difference if you are shooting film, so if you are open to used, you might do well to look at an M6, which is a great camera with a functioning meter and otherwise fully mechanical operation. If the battery runs out, it works just like the MA...with the bonus that you always have a functioning meter if you want one. An MP would be another. Personally I think the M7 was the best film M, as the stepless AE shutter is perfect for slides and it has the quietest shutter of them all, as the slow speeds are electronically controlled. It would also be the most similar to your M10M in interface (same finder style, for the most part). The only kick with the M7 is that it is more prone to electronic issues than earlier M's, for obvious reasons. I think the trade-off is worth it, in this sense, but if you don't, the M6 or MP are very good choices.

As for the lenses, there are many vintage Leica, Canon and Nikon lenses for Leica thread mount and M mount that will be easier to adapt to an M body. When you are shooting film, the biggest issue is generally focus and rangefinder calibration. It is much harder to dial in because you cannot check your files quickly or easily, and you do not have an EVF to rely on. Focus shift is also a bigger issue in older lenses, and it can be a bit maddening to deal with. If you are looking for an old Leica lens with crazy bokeh and a vintage palette, the 50mm 1.5 summarit is a good choice (also the most dense/heavy lens for its size...beautiful circular iris, fast and low contrast with a lot of glow, but still has sharpness. Usually needs calibration to focus accurately). For a more general purpose lens, the collapsible summicrons are fun to use and have a beautiful look, while still being quite practical and sharp enough for most use.

Hello Stuart...

Thank you for the informative reply. (This is such a great forum).

I've been shooting a lot of MF film too...I have a Hassy System camera and lenses, and also have been playing with a Shen Hao 6x17 view camera, and others with no meter.

I"m getting pretty good at Sunny 16 and varying off that...I've been practicing that actually on my M10M...I seldom use the meter internal to it (I forget it has one).

I have a good sekonic spot meter I"ve been using and I bought the Nick Carver metering system class and am getting pretty decent at my guesses.  I bought into the Kickstarter of the latest Reveni Labs Spot meter offering:

Reveni Labs Spot Meter Kickstarter

I was thinking the Reveni small meter they previously put out that is tiny and will mount on a hot/cold shoe might be a good addition to the MA...?

I was looking at M4-P's pretty hard...and M6's, but goodness the prices on the M4-P's are about $2K and the M6's are often hovering near the $3K mark.

I found a MA used near the $4K mark and I"m thinking that that extra $$ is worth getting a camera that isn't 30+ years old....for longevity and it has sort of the best of all the previous M cameras in it.

I also like the MA as that it is unmarked and highly "stealth". I live in New Orleans and well, with crime the way it is in the recent year or so, I'd just as soon not call attention to myself with red dot cameras.  I enjoy my M10M for that reason too!!  I was thinking it would be funny that reaching in my bag, I'll have think a bit on which one I"m grabbing....with or without film advance lever.

 

Thank you for the info...I've started looking and Mr. Leica on YouTube had excellent reviews and praise for the older Canon LTM lenses...I'll check out the Nikon offerings too.

Right now, I have the Voigtlander 35mm Ultron (1)....and the Voigtlander 50mm APO, so I'll keep the 35 on the M10M and use the 50 on the MA for the most part I think.

I've got my eye on the Voigtlander 75mm 1.5 lens...which should cover me very well on both cameras for modern lenses, and then leave me fun to explore the vintage ones ya'll have been suggesting.

 

Thank you EVERYONE so far for all the great insight and info...and thanks for you patience, I"m just learning all this stuff.

 

cayenne

[Cayenne]

4 hours ago, Danner said:

Of course LTM lens adapt to the M mount with an adapter, my comment is to buy quality adapters, as there are cheap units out there that result in rangefinder mis-calibration.  The Leica adapters of great, of course, and the Rayqual brand are trusted (by me).

Thank you...I've not heard of the Rayqual adapters and honestly I didn't know Leica made adapters?!?  D'oh...well, like I said, I'm a noob.

Any other brands you recommend?

 

Thank you in advance!!

cayenne

[Cayenne]

6 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Ecar pointed to the right way.

I can add that with digital M and liveview, testing an unknow lens is simple and quick.

In my multiple Canon (LTM lenses 28/35/50/135), they are quite reliable and good to complement Leitz/Leica lenses.

My Jupiters are 2/3 good enough, J3/8 are good in coupling and results, but J9 not coupling well to Leica M RF but in EVF/LV's use J3 stellar results.

I have the Helios 44-2 adapted for my M10M....which I use Visoflex and back of camera for.....I LOVE that swirly bokeh.....is there a solid L39 that will work coupled with the MA that has that same type swirly bokeh?

 

Thank you,

cayenne

[Cayenne]

9 hours ago, Ecar said:

LTM (aka L39) lenses will work - and most of them will couple with the RF - on any M camera with an adapter ring.

Good adapter rings are important to avoid focussing frustration. If you want to use LTM lenses on the M10M - and use the EVF/LV - make sure that the adapter fully covers the 6-bit sensor on the body flange, else the camera will tell you that it can't detect a lens and the screen will shut down. 

M39 or M42 lenses were designed primarily for reflex cameras: they will mount on an M body with an adapter, but without RF coupling. A Helios 40 will be usable only on your M10M with EVF/LV. A full conversion may be possible, but that's an entirely different (and expensive) game, as it would require replacing the original helicoid. 

FSU lenses can be hit-and-miss: most will need to be adjusted, and even then, there's no guarantee that they will focus properly across the range. If you really want one, the Industar-61 L/D is cheap, surprisingly usable, easy to service and generally not too bad in terms of focus. 

I'd start with LTM Leitz or Nikkor/Canon lenses. There's a huge choice out there.

 

Do you have recommendations  for fast Canon/Nikkor lenses to look into for use on the MA?

 

Thank you very much for the reply!!

cayenne

[a.noctilux]

8 minutes ago, Cayenne said:

I have the Helios 44-2 adapted for my M10M....which I use Visoflex and back of camera for.....I LOVE that swirly bokeh.....is there a solid L39 that will work coupled with the MA that has that same type swirly bokeh?

 

Thank you,

cayenne

I see sometimes swirly high lights when I use Summarit 1.5/50 ( more here ... ) or Summar 5cm ( some examples, here (not from me)

 

[Ecar]

2 hours ago, Cayenne said:

Thank you...I've not heard of the Rayqual adapters and honestly I didn't know Leica made adapters?!?  D'oh...well, like I said, I'm a noob.

Any other brands you recommend?

 

Thank you in advance!!

cayenne

Leica and Voigtlander LTM to M adapters are discontinued - and rather expensive on the used market. In any case, most of them had a cut-out that happens to be located where the 6-bit sensor on your M10M is, so not good if you want to use LV/EVF.

Rayqual are currently the best IMO as well. But not cheap. Fotodiox are generally good, easy to source in the US and somewhat cheaper. Best Chinese adapters I have found are from jinfinance on eBay, although they don't work with all lenses and may sometimes be a bit tight, depending on batches. Anything else is luck of the draw.

[Ecar]

4 hours ago, Cayenne said:

 

Do you have recommendations  for fast Canon/Nikkor lenses to look into for use on the MA?

 

Thank you very much for the reply!!

cayenne

Canon 50/1.4 or 50/1.8 (get the earlier, silver brass, heavier version of the latter, which is not prone to fogging). The Canon 50/1.2 is also an interesting lens, but finding one that doesn't haze on the penultimate rear element may take several iterations (rather easy to DIY clean though).

Nikkor 50/1.4 or 50/2. Both are Sonnar designs. Note that some lenses on the used market may seem to be significantly more expensive than others for no apparent reason. This is due to rarity of some of the versions, batches, etc. I'd just start by buying on the basis of condition at a price that makes sense.

Fast 35mm LTM lenses from Nikon or Canon tend to be rather expensive. The Canon 35/2 may be your best bet.

For fast longer lenses, the Nikkor 85/2 is not too hard to find in good condition at very decent prices. Canon 85mm lenses are a mixed bag in terms of size/weight, IQ and price: I'd pick the 85/1.8, although it's not cheap.

For RF use, make sure you get the appropriate LTM to M adapter (ie, the one that matches the focal length of the lens) so that it brings up the correct framelines. Adapters usually come in 50-75, 28-90 and 35-135 versions.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Ecar

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[Cayenne]

Just as an FYI.

Yesterday I dropped the hammer and bought myself a Leica MA.

I got the born on date....2020.

 

Should be here Tuesday.

Now..while I save money a bit, I'm researching lenses and adapters per all your kind suggestions!!

 

Thank you,

 

C

[a.noctilux]

👍

if you receive your M-A with all accessories, you would see in four places the date of final control (which can be different from date of manufactoring ! ).

With the serial number, the date YYYY/MM/DD.