New 21mm || SEM or not SEM, that is the question!

[Dennis]

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6 hours ago, Cobram said:

@Dennis In another thread you can now see pros and cons of 21 Skopar in two posted photos. First photo: very sharp, nice rendering. Second photo: flare. I shot mainly people and sometimes happened to me that veiling flare artefacts were positioned just on the face of a person. Verry irritating 😉

Thank you! Ghost flare I like it, or embrace it. Veiling flare it could be annoying and not like it. I guess the SEM is impeccable on this. 

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[lct]

Which Skopar 21 are you referring to folks? The previous 21/4 or the current 21/3.5? The latter flares much less than the former in my experience.

[Dennis]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

Which Skopar 21 are you referring to folks? The previous 21/4 or the current 21/3.5? The latter flares much less than the former in my experience.

The post is between SEM and current 21/3.5 ... Someone in this thread mentioned the 21/4, which I know it flares more, and right now it's not on my radar.

Mr. Ict, do you have the 3.5 version right?

[lct]

Yes Mr. Dennis

[Cobram]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

The post is between SEM and current 21/3.5 ... Someone in this thread mentioned the 21/4, which I know it flares more, and right now it's not on my radar.

Mr. Ict, do you have the 3.5 version right?

Sorry, mistake. Didn't want to bring confusion. I own and made comments about 21/4 Skopar. 

[Dennis]

38 minutes ago, lct said:

Yes Mr. Dennis

And Mr. Ict, what about this lens? Does it fulfill your requirements as 21? Any cons to share? Thank you 🙏

[lct]

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1 hour ago, Dennis said:

And Mr. Ict, what about this lens? Does it fulfill your requirements as 21? Any cons to share? Thank you 🙏

Very good lens indeed. Can compete with the SEM 21/3.4 with the added benefice of smaller size and shorter MFD. Doesn't cause any red edge issue on my M240 contrary to the CV 21/4. Besides its focus stick one can love or hate and difficult to read DoF markings, only con is color fringing due to laca or loca (don't ask me which) but the issue is not huge and proves easy to fix in PP. See:

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by lct

[Dennis]

53 minutes ago, lct said:

Very good lens indeed. Can compete with the SEM 21/3.4 with the added benefice of smaller size and shorter MFD. Doesn't cause any red edge issue on my M240 contrary to the CV 21/4. Besides its focus stick one cas love or hate and difficult to read DoF markings, only con is color fringing due to laca or loca (don't ask me which) but the issue is not huge and proves easy to fix in PP

Thank you for your feedback.

Focus stick? No idea yet. I guess I will have to try it first before decide if I love it or hate it 🙂

DoF markings I don't care because it's everything in my mind 🙄 But your point did make me wonder about the DoF markings on the SEM. Wow, it's the opposite. So great and easy to read.

 

 

[Dennis]

1 hour ago, lct said:

focus stick - love or hate

Do you think one can use a focus TAAB if the screw stick is removed? 

[lct]

27 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Do you think one can use a focus TAAB if the screw stick is removed? 

I have no idea sorry.

[giannis]

On 7/18/2021 at 10:22 PM, Dennis said:

the 21/SEM is one of the finest lenses of the brand. It's super sharp, corner to corner, an extraordinary glass with almost no lacks

And on top of that, it's very small with great ergonomics, and relatively  reasonably priced. Pretty much what Leica has been all about for most of its history.

 

On 7/18/2021 at 10:22 PM, Dennis said:

or competition in its focal length (when speed is not needed).

This one I'd disagree. Check the 21mm f/2.8 Biogon. It performs the same, with marginally less distortion, and for also a very reasonable price (substantially less than half of the price of the Leica). The extra (almost) stop of light is just a bonus. Realistically the performance is the same, you won't be able to tell them apart. So I'd say choose based on ergonomics and price.

[giannis]

On 7/19/2021 at 9:55 PM, Dennis said:

I ask because I have no idea if the diffraction affects every lens in the universe at certain f/stops in FF

Diffraction affects everything at all apertures. Diffraction puts a "ceiling" at the maximum resolution a lens can potentially achieve at every aperture. As you stop down the aperture, that ceiling becomes lower and lower. But as you stop down the aperture, the "gains" from the reduced aberrations outweigh the losses due to diffraction. At some point, the gains from aberration elimination (by stopping down) stop outweighing the losses due to diffraction and the situation reverses. This is the diffraction limit of the lens.

An extraordinary lens would be diffraction limited wide open. Very, very few non-scientific such lenses exist (I only know of some medium format Zeiss Superachromats for Hasselblad). It's always funny seeing some people mention that, say, lens A is better than lens B cause lens A is diffraction limited at f22 while B is diffraction limited at f/11. I guess in their mind it means that lens A starts "suffering" at f/22 while B starts suffering at f/11 hence B is worse. In reality the opposite is true: lens A suffered all along that's why you didn't notice the diffraction losses until f/22, they were covered by optical aberrations. While lens B was better all along, with fewer aberrations, that's why you could notice the losses due to diffraction at f/11 already.

Edited July 20, 2021 by giannis
typo

[Dennis]

5 hours ago, giannis said:

This one I'd disagree. Check the 21mm f/2.8 Biogon. It performs the same, with marginally less distortion, and for also a very reasonable price (substantially less than half of the price of the Leica). The extra (almost) stop of light is just a bonus. Realistically the performance is the same, you won't be able to tell them apart. So I'd say choose based on ergonomics and price.

I thought SEM was better, in some ways. I don't like Zeiss focus ring (w/ the horrible knob), the 1/3 aperture clicks, and the 21/2.8 Biogon it's 300gr. SEM is 280gr and CV 21/3.5 180gr... That's why, for all of that, I didn't put it as option.

5 hours ago, giannis said:

It's always funny seeing some people mention that, say, lens A is better than lens B cause lens A is diffraction limited at f22 while B is diffraction limited at f/11. I guess in their mind it means that lens A starts "suffering" at f/22 while B starts suffering at f/11 hence B is worse.

🤣

I have my mindset set for f/8 max, and it works like a charm. I just wondering if the SEM was defending better than others. But you answered me already. Thank you.

.

Do you have any idea which lens hood I could use with the CV 21/3.5? I don't want for sure the original CV, the huge one. So big. I would want something smaller and discreet. I don't use filters but yes I do use lens hood, for lens protection and best practice. Any original CV but smaller?

[mikeamosau]

No question, just buy the Super Elmar. 

[cp995]

After several years of use I exchanged my SEM with the Skopar 3.5/21 this year.
It's much lighter and smaller with outstanding image quality; no need to talk about the price.

I'll never look back to the SEM ...

Edited July 21, 2021 by cp995

[cp995]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Dennis:

Do you have any idea which lens hood I could use with the CV 21/3.5? I don't want for sure the original CV, the huge one...

Same with me an the big hood!
I use a Haoge LH-VM13P

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by cp995

[Cobram]

2 hours ago, cp995 said:

After several years of use I exchanged my SEM with the Skopar 3.5/21 this year.
It's much lighter and smaller with outstanding image quality; no need to talk about the price.

I'll never look back to the SEM ...

Interesting.

Can you share with us more insights regarding SEM vs 21 3.5 Skopar? I understand the price and size argument but on the other hand I'm really interested in image quality comparison. Rendering? Do you prefer Skopar over SEM?

[cp995]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Cobram:

Interesting.

Can you share with us more insights regarding SEM vs 21 3.5 Skopar? I understand the price and size argument but on the other hand I'm really interested in image quality comparison. Rendering? Do you prefer Skopar over SEM?

Most important for me was the size factor
Before the Skopar 3.5 21mm came out, there was no competition for the SEM 21.
After the announcementI read several reviews and picture samples from guys like Fred Miranda or Bastian Kratzke which showed the outstanding quality of the new Skopar.
Im not a reviewer so I never compared them directly and I sold the SEM before I got the Skopar.
So I can't help you with examples.
 

 

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[Dennis]

6 hours ago, cp995 said:

Same with me and the big hood!
I use a Haoge LH-VM13P

Thank you. It looks like I could use this lens for 21/3.5 and 35/2 Ultron II, both are 39mm thread. Interesting.

6 hours ago, cp995 said:

After several years of use I exchanged my SEM with the Skopar 3.5/21 this year.
It's much lighter and smaller with outstanding image quality; no need to talk about the price.

Another point for the 21/3.5, good to know.

[giannis]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

I don't like Zeiss focus ring (w/ the horrible knob), the 1/3 aperture clicks, and the 21/2.8 Biogon it's 300gr. SEM is 280gr and CV 21/3.5 180gr... That's why, for all of that, I didn't put it as option.

That's a valid point. Ergonomics is a big deal, especially is such similarly performing lenses. And yeah, I'm also not a fan of the 1/3rd stops. Also the CV is noticeably lighter and smaller, I think you'd like it a lot the more you had to carry it around. I didn't mention it earlier, but the CV is a great option as well. Very small and light, and very reasonably priced, very good performance too. Honestly, for most use cases I'd consider all these lenses identically performing, with very, very minor differences wrt flare resistance and distortion. You won't be disappointed by any of them, and especially so the CV, don't let its lower price worry you. 

Lastly keep in mind that I'm not aware of any sensor issues on digital cause I shoot film. Check some reviews or the experiences of others, about that. The only thing I know is that digital sensors can't cope with my personal favourite lens (f/4.5 Biogon) so I didn't mention that one as an option, but I'm not aware about the others.

 

11 hours ago, Dennis said:

Do you have any idea which lens hood I could use with the CV 21/3.5? I don't want for sure the original CV, the huge one. So big. I would want something smaller and discreet. I don't use filters but yes I do use lens hood, for lens protection and best practice. Any original CV but smaller?

Ah, kinda like me. Tbh I also use a hood most of the time for protection from bumps etc. since I don't use a "protective" filter. My hoods are mostly sacrificial, to take all the hits, bumps, scratches, accidental bangs against rails etc. . And they end up quite tatty, quickly.  So I don't really bother using an original hood (even if it's included, let alone buy it at retail price). I just go on ebay (or aliexpress) and get packs of cheap vented hoods (usually aluminium but also plastic), in black and silver, for a couple bucks per hood. Maybe someone has more experience with CV hoods and can help.