M10P / M10M Live view shutter lag

[hey_giulio]

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Hi all,

when using the M10P or M10M in live view I am quite sure that the time between when the shutter button is activated and the camera actually takes the exposure is significantly longer than when not using live view.

Of course this is quite noticeable with moving subjects. For example if you are interested in a certain subject placement or face expression, live view makes it more probable to miss the moment you desired.

Am I doing something wrong? Is there any in camera setting that I should be activating to reduce such lag? I feel like being back to the early ‘00s, when many digital cameras had a very unpleasant shutter lag.

I know that M’s are not meant to be operated with live view, which is only an additional feature. I just want to know if what I experience is what I should be experiencing or if user error is causing this to happen. If there is no user error, does anybody know the technical reason why this lag has not been eliminated by the camera maker? Would I experience the same lag if I mounted my M lenses on a SL2 or SL2-S body?

Thanks in advance for any advice/information on the above.

Edited May 15, 2021 by hey_giulio

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[LocalHero1953]

You are correct. It does take longer when using LV. When you are not using LV the shutter is by default closed, so all it has to do when pressing the shutter button is open and close. When you are using LV the shutter is by default open; it has to close, then open and close - an extra operation. It has been like this since the M240.

Of course all other cameras that use LV have to do the same, but you notice it on the M10 (and M240 before it) because the normal operation (without LV) is so responsive. I don't have the M10, but I did have the M240, and the lag when using LV was much longer than on my CL or SL - the latter was very quick indeed though. From your experience it sounds like the M10 is not that much faster than the M240, but I'm sure others will tell you.

Edited May 15, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[elmars]

The M10 is a very fast and reactive camera in the rangefinder mode. But in LV it is very slow. We have to wait for the M11 to get an LV mode that is state of the art. 

[hey_giulio]

I also have a Q camera, which in my understanding is constantly in “live view” (since there is no optical finder): with the Q I have not experienced any (noticeable to me) shutter lag.

Does anybody know the technical reason why “live view” comes with shutter lag on the M10 while there is no shutter lag on most mirrorless cameras?

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You are correct. It does take longer when using LV. When you are not using LV the shutter is by default closed, so all it has to do when pressing the shutter button is open and close. When you are using LV the shutter is by default open; it has to close, then open and close - an extra operation. It has been like this since the M240.

Of course all other cameras that use LV have to do the same, but you notice it on the M10 (and M240 before it) because the normal operation (without LV) is so responsive. I don't have the M10, but I did have the M240, and the lag when using LV was much longer than on my CL or SL - the latter was very quick indeed though. From your experience it sounds like the M10 is not that much faster than the M240, but I'm sure others will tell you.

This. You have to wait for the extra shutter operation. The M10 is electronics grafted into a 1950ies camera concept. That involves compromises.

[hey_giulio]

Thanks Jaapv for helping out. One question though: the extra shutter operation is not also needed on other mirrorless bodies that use a mechanical shutter? If so, why does the M10 take more time to do the same operation? I believe the shutter mechanism on the M10 is quite new. I am just trying to understand exactly why this does not happen on - for example - an SL2 body.

[LocalHero1953]

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Yes, the extra shutter operation is needed on all cameras with LV and a mechanical shutter (i.e. one made of metal or cloth). Electronic shutters, as on smartphones, the Sigma fp, and as an option on quite a lot of other cameras, work without any mechanical action, in a different way.

As to why the M240 and M10 have such lag, I don't know, but Jaap may be right about the source of the matter.

Edited May 15, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[hey_giulio]

Thanks LocalHero1953.

It would really be interesting to understand why this happens. 

While the rangefinder is excellent for most use cases, there are certain situations where live view really excels.

Maybe an SL system would be a better platform for using M lenses with live view.

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, hey_giulio said:

Maybe an SL system would be a better platform for using M lenses with live view.

Well, certainly if you use the electronic shutter.

[hey_giulio]

Thanks Jaapv, I’m quite curious: does an SL camera with an L lens experience noticeable shutter lag while using the mechanical shutter?
I don’t know because I’ve never used one, but I would say no, because it would really be limiting for serious use.

If this is the case then I would say that there would be no reason for the same SL camera to experience shutter lag with M lenses while using a mechanical shutter. 

the conclusion is: why can a SL camera use live view with mechanical shutter without shutter lag and why an M camera cannot? There must be some technical explanation that I miss.

[LocalHero1953]

The shutter lag on the SL is barely perceptible to me - not enough to worry about. And it's the same whether it is a M or L lens. 

And again, I can't answer your last question!

[hey_giulio]

Thanks LocalHero1953, your answer is very valuable!

As for the rest, maybe someone else on the forum knows more about this... 

 

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, hey_giulio said:

Thanks Jaapv, I’m quite curious: does an SL camera with an L lens experience noticeable shutter lag while using the mechanical shutter?
I don’t know because I’ve never used one, but I would say no, because it would really be limiting for serious use.

If this is the case then I would say that there would be no reason for the same SL camera to experience shutter lag with M lenses while using a mechanical shutter. 

the conclusion is: why can a SL camera use live view with mechanical shutter without shutter lag and why an M camera cannot? There must be some technical explanation that I miss.

DSLRs and rangefinder cameras have shutter lag when using live-view. Live view is not the primary use case for those cameras. The shutter delay may prevent the shutter shock blur.
EVF-based cameras have very little shutter lag, as the live view is their only shooting mode.

[hey_giulio]

Dear SrMi, many thanks for your input.
Do you know what is the technical reason why M10 has this shutter lag and other mirrorless cameras don’t?

[pedaes]

25 minutes ago, hey_giulio said:

M10 has this shutter lag and other mirrorless cameras don’t?

Other mirrorless cameras aren't fundamentally a rangefinder camera. It is what it is. 

[hey_giulio]

Hi Pedaes, thanks for your comment, yes I concur with your opinion, there is a big difference between M10 and other mirrorless cameras, because M10 has a rangefinder too. I was wondering if anybody here knows what exactly is the technical reason why M10 has a live view shutter lag and other mirrorless camera don't. Of course I understand that this is something that goes deep into technical stuff and therefore this might not be the appropriate venue for such a discussion. However, reading this forum I have always noticed that the forum participants really are super knowledgeable, therefore I have decided to try and ask them!

Thanks again.

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, hey_giulio said:

Dear SrMi, many thanks for your input.
Do you know what is the technical reason why M10 has this shutter lag and other mirrorless cameras don’t?

Thank you for being curious :). I did a test. Shot a video of a running timer, live view on. 

Shutter speed 1/180 sec: Shutter pressed at 6:60 sec, recorded image shows 6:67; delay 0.07 sec.

Shutter speed 1/6 sec: Shutter pressed at 6:66 sec, recorded image 6:87: delay .21 sec.

My conclusion is that the shutter lag depends on the selected shutter speed. The faster the shutter speed the shorter the lag.

Closing the shutter occurs via the closing curtain which is apparently delayed by selected shutter speed as if it were a regular (non-live-view) shot. I assume the process is as follows in live view:

a) Shutter pressed

b) Closing curtain is released after a delay as selected with shutter speed.

c) Opening curtain is released

d) Closing curtain is released after a delay as selected with shutter speed.

(e) Opening curtain is released again for live-view to be active)

The shutter delay is between steps b) and c). Live view has also considerable delay (0.1 to .2 sec in my observation).

 

[mmradman]

I think all previous replies answer the question, the summary would be RF camera need to start the exposure with curtain closed so when working in LV it means shutter curtain is already open and it needs to be closed before it can take the exposure.

 In contrast Mirrorless camera operates with Shutter curtain open at all times, so be it electronic or  mechanical exposure it is half way there, all it has to do is to operate the shutter to take the exposure.

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[SrMi]

Just now, mmradman said:

I think all previous replies answer the question, the summary would be RF camera need to start the exposure with curtain closed so when working in LV it means shutter curtain is already open and it needs to be closed before it can take the exposure.

 In contrast Mirrorless camera operates with Shutter curtain open at all times, so be it electronic or  mechanical exposure it is half way there, all it has to do is to operate the shutter to take the exposure.

In mechanical shutter mode, an EVF-based camera also has to close the shutter and then open it again. However, a mirrorless shutter is optimized for live-view operation.

[mmradman]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

In mechanical shutter mode, an EVF-based camera also has to close the shutter and then open it again. However, a mirrorless shutter is optimized for live-view operation.

Indeed, as per post #5 - electronic camera concept grafted in 1950s camera body.