28mm elmarit problems with m240

[DimLs]

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Hello forum! Firstly I want to thank all these contributing into the m system knowledge. I have been helped so much from this forum and from some people here.

I would like to share some frustration I have with my m240 and elmarit. I believe that the 28 elmarit is faulty.

I own 2 m240s, 35 summarit, 50 summarit (all f2.4) and a newly acquired 28 elmarit. I actually didn't have any problems with focusing with my 2 m240s, especially after adjusting the 2mm hex screw.

When I bought the 28, I got troubled. It had severe focusing problems. I sent it to Leica care and they told me its fine. So they told me to send the cam.I sent one of 2 cameras. When all got back:

1. elmarit didn't have lens hard stop at infinity, but a soft dumped stop at rangefinder lever...Im not experienced but I guess it is unacceptable more many reasons.

2. Elmarit rangefinder patch could not coincide a infinity by a big margin (e.g. 1/6 of the rangefinder length) and thats a reason the lens hard stop was pre-covered by the rangefinder lever hard stop.

3. The other 2 lenses had lens hard stop (making the classic metal click at the end of the focus ring rotation) 

4. From the above story, with the above mentioned info, what do you understand? I understand that either 28 is factory misadjusted, or the other 2 are misadjusted. And to make it even worse, if the other 2 are misadjusted form factory, so were the the 2 m240 I have. And to make it even worse, the 2 m240 with he 2 summarits were misadjusted in a way that in any combination I were combining them, I could not identify focus problem, at least to a point that made me anxious. So when 28 arrived I got very anxious. Do you think there is a possibility that the 28 is ok??

5. I immediately adjusted the 2mm hex screw so as to make the summarits work fine. This lead for severe front focusing of the elmarit at least in short distances. Moreover I have the impression that at Leica service they changed the rangefinder lever position a bit, because If I adjust the 2mm hex screw so that I have perfect coincidence focusing the moon (or slightly beyond) with the summarits, then the hard lens stop is being replaced from the soft rangefinder lever stop. Something I think was hot happening before with he same adjustment of the 2mm screw.

6. Do all these sound to you as if the 28mm lens could be fine? I have been told from Leica care to send all my m system to them. But I am afraid that there is a possibility they could make adjustments that would not follow what common sense tells. 

7. Is it possible that all lenses are fine but a rangefinder adjustment could cover all these inconsistencies? We are talking about big variations of focus of the elmarit against the 2 summarits, in 2 cameras, all new bought 1 year ago and treaded so kindly by me.

 

Thanks for spending your time to read all this!

[lct]

Seems like your lenses are under warranty so i would ask Leica in the first place but i would avoid DIY tweakings that might void the warranty.

[DimLs]

You have a point, but the evidence till now propose its likely that although under warranty, service did work out well.

[lct]

Gear is under warranty and can only be fixed by Leica unless you void the warranty of course. May take some time but i don't see another alternative sorry.

[Infantasy]

Don't complicate the problems. Which equipment were you bought brand new? Lense is hardly to misaligned if you use it since brand new without send it for CLA. On the contrary,  rangefinder could fall into misalign overtime. 

So if there was no problem before you buy the 28 Elmarit, then only the 28 should has problem.  Which version is you 28? and was it a used lense?

Of course,  you should send all you equipment to Leica for a complete adjustment if you are doubt that your entire system have been misadjusted. You should believe the work from Leica but not common senses as they are the specialist of their products without criticized.

[jankap]

5 hours ago, Infantasy said:

So if there was no problem before you buy the 28 Elmarit, then only the 28 should has problem.  Which version is you 28? and was it a used lense?

Perhaps a picture of the Elmarit (being on the camera) and a a result picture of it.

Edited April 25, 2021 by jankap

[DimLs]

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6 hours ago, Infantasy said:

Don't complicate the problems. Which equipment were you bought brand new? Lense is hardly to misaligned if you use it since brand new without send it for CLA. On the contrary,  rangefinder could fall into misalign overtime. 

So if there was no problem before you buy the 28 Elmarit, then only the 28 should has problem.  Which version is you 28? and was it a used lense?

Of course,  you should send all you equipment to Leica for a complete adjustment if you are doubt that your entire system have been misadjusted. You should believe the work from Leica but not common senses as they are the specialist of their products without criticized.

All gear is new, and all lenses are turbos generation, and  not second hand. I agree that in general all lenses should be the correctly calibrated and the rangefinder could need adjustment from time to time. But as far as I understand, from evidence made on my original post, the elmarit is to blame for misadjusent.

[DimLs]

6 hours ago, Infantasy said:

Of course,  you should send all you equipment to Leica for a complete adjustment if you are doubt that your entire system have been misadjusted. You should believe the work from Leica but not common senses as they are the specialist of their products without criticized.

At the original post i mention that when the cam with 28 came back from service, there was not lens hard stop at infinity and the rangefinder patch was missing the 1/6 of the rangefinder patch length from reaching infinity. I also mention that the elmarit front focuses grossly with the cam adjusted for the summarits. Eg at 1 m distance it front focuses 10 cm, while summarit is ok.

it seems ( and I want to eliminate this as a probability, although my technical understand is poor)  as if there was a lens problem and Leica service covered it it by compensating with m240 adjustments and that’s why all of the other gear is not compatible with the m240 and kens I got back from service. I could be wrong on this opinion, that’s why I ask for peoples views. In the end of my post I am wondering if a camera adjustment can even these lens inconsistencies. I think it’s difficult. If I am correct on that, either the elmarit was not checked from Leica care or the summarit I bought last year is factory misadjusted.

So the service I have to trust makes me wonder. Especially when they give to me not the slightest of information regarding their work on the gear I sent them and they don’t give me any kind of information in general when I am referring to the inconsistencies I see. 

If you were in my case, with the evidence I say here, would you be happy to send all of your system to them? 

[Infantasy]

41 minutes ago, DimLs said:

At the original post i mention that when the cam with 28 came back from service, there was not lens hard stop at infinity and the rangefinder patch was missing the 1/6 of the rangefinder patch length from reaching infinity. I also mention that the elmarit front focuses grossly with the cam adjusted for the summarits. Eg at 1 m distance it front focuses 10 cm, while summarit is ok.

it seems ( and I want to eliminate this as a probability, although my technical understand is poor)  as if there was a lens problem and Leica service covered it it by compensating with m240 adjustments and that’s why all of the other gear is not compatible with the m240 and kens I got back from service. I could be wrong on this opinion, that’s why I ask for peoples views. In the end of my post I am wondering if a camera adjustment can even these lens inconsistencies. I think it’s difficult. If I am correct on that, either the elmarit was not checked from Leica care or the summarit I bought last year is factory misadjusted.

So the service I have to trust makes me wonder. Especially when they give to me not the slightest of information regarding their work on the gear I sent them and they don’t give me any kind of information in general when I am referring to the inconsistencies I see. 

If you were in my case, with the evidence I say here, would you be happy to send all of your system to them? 

Ok. If you don't intend to send back your system to Leica, I would suggest you to calibrate one of your M240 by yourself. But bear in mind to use the lense with longest focal length (50 summarit?) and follow the link below accordingly. Once the M240 is calibrated, then the second longest (35 summarit?) and the 28 Elmarit the latest.

 

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, DimLs said:

it seems ( and I want to eliminate this as a probability, although my technical understand is poor)  as if there was a lens problem and Leica service covered it it by compensating with m240 adjustments and that’s why all of the other gear is not compatible

Leica Wetzlar would not do that. 

You never get a description from Leica Service of what they did so don't expect one.

Is your rangefinder patch unobstructed when you use the camera?

Can you get to a Leica Store where you can try another lens of same type?

[DimLs]

Thanks. I have read this thread. It’s so useful! Thanks for the order of lenses selection for alignment: yes I have 50,35,28.I would do it myself if I wasn’t suspicious that the 28 could be miadjusted: wrong slope of the cam  or wrong leveling of the cam. And I am suspicious because of this: Leica care adjusted the lens (?) and the m240 in a way that lens infinity focus was blocked too early from the rangefinder roller. This means that the roller was shifted forward. That’s why the rectangle could not coincide by about 1/6  of the length of the rectangle. This shift they made at absolute infinity stop, was made so as to bring close focus accuracy into acceptable limit. But expect from the infinity problem I described above, this rangefinder adjustment made the other 2 lenses and one other camera (and another camera and lens I had 3 yrs ago) to be totally inaccurate.

[lct]

1 hour ago, DimLs said:

If you were in my case, with the evidence I say here, would you be happy to send all of your system to them? 

Happy no but what's your alternative if you want your problem to be fixed for free w/o voiding the warranty? I would be tempted to send my gear to a repairer of mine if i were in your shoes but it would not come for free and i would not ask Leica to refund me. 

[DimLs]

3 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Leica Wetzlar would not do that. 

You never get a description from Leica Service of what they did so don't expect one.

Is your rangefinder patch unobstructed when you use the camera?

Can you get to a Leica Store where you can try another lens of same type?

I hope they would never do that. And I have understood they won’t describe what they do because it could start endless discussions with end users that are educated incompletely with the m system. I understand and accept that, but I learnt it after getting about 10 ignores instead of a reply that it’s their policy not to get into details.

yes the rangefinder patch is un obscured if I understand correctly what you mean: light and optical path is always  free for the patch to work correctly.

Here in Greece we only have a representative, not a Leica store, and they didn’t have either a body or a lens to cross check. I’m thinking I would sent to Leica Berlin where I bought is to kindly check for themselves if they can, before contacting Leica care 

[DimLs]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Happy no but what's your alternative if you want your problem to be fixed for free w/o voiding the warranty? I would be tempted to send my gear to a repairer of mine if i were in your shoes but it would not come for free and i would not ask Leica to refund me. 

I agree but my problem is not cost but firstly  quality of check/repair. I questioning their stick to formal procedures or it could be just a mistake and that’s my main “problem”. Anyway I will see how I should proceed. Thanks 

[pedaes]

59 minutes ago, DimLs said:

I would sent to Leica Berlin

It would be as easy to send to Leica in Wetzlar. If you contact them (e-mail is fine) and explain problem as clearly as you can they will send you a label for courier (last time I sent it was UPS).

You need to send all your lenses and camera and they will set everything individually to standard specification. They will not adjust a lens or body as a pair- only everything to standard. However, if there is a fault and they cannot set to that standard they will do necessary repair.

Good luck and keep us informed.

[Infantasy]

I presume your Elmarit 28 is 11677 as attached which has the same construction with mine 11606. I just like to confirm that you have completely mounted the lense to the body with the lock near the red dot "clicked" securely.  Since the holding portion of this lense is very thin, I had experienced that the lense sometimes is very hard to turn to sat onto the click.  Just ignore my reminder if you had done properly.

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[pedaes]

33 minutes ago, Infantasy said:

with the lock near the red dot "clicked" securely.

Good advice. You also should always mount M lenses with focus set to near distance to avoid contact with rf cam.

[DimLs]

2 hours ago, Infantasy said:

I presume your Elmarit 28 is 11677 as attached which has the same construction with mine 11606. I just like to confirm that you have completely mounted the lense to the body with the lock near the red dot "clicked" securely.  Since the holding portion of this lense is very thin, I had experienced that the lense sometimes is very hard to turn to sat onto the click.  Just ignore my reminder if you had done properly.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

2 hours ago, Infantasy said:

I presume your Elmarit 28 is 11677 as attached which has the same construction with mine 11606. I just like to confirm that you have completely mounted the lense to the body with the lock near the red dot "clicked" securely.  Since the holding portion of this lense is very thin, I had experienced that the lense sometimes is very hard to turn to sat onto the click.  Just ignore my reminder if you had done properly.

Thanks for mention it. It always check it’s locked, it makes the click doing and yes, it’s easy to not lock it.

[DimLs]

2 hours ago, pedaes said:

Good advice. You also should always mount M lenses with focus set to near distance to avoid contact with rf cam.

It has never crossed my mind. Nice info!

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[DimLs]

4 hours ago, pedaes said:

and they will set everything individually to standard specification.

Good luck and keep us informed.

I have don’t this procedure again and it’s easy. I want I to send the system to then but my comments after the first survive rise questions.

 

I will keep you informed when the mystery gets hopefully solved!