ProRes Raw is coming ?

[Svetozar]

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I just went on leica_camera instagram and saw one very interesting post on their page.

Somebody asked them about when the ProRes Raw is coming for Atomos Ninja V?

- And their answer from their official page was that they are working on it !!!

I think this is a very promising news and Big Plus+ for Leica and their development team.

Really excited to see when this would be possible.

Would like to see also update for DJI RS2 as well.

What do you guys think of it ?

 

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[Westerwald-Leica]

What's ProRes Raw?

 

[Slender]

An Apple video format that compresses the Raw data from the sensor into an editing friendly Apple ProRes format. So you can have control in post-production over settings like ISO, Exposure variance, White Balance (most notably)... apply the Log of your choice etc...

You can catch up on those great videos (some comments are made obsolete by firmware updates) https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+dp+journey+prores+raw

to get a basic idea of where things stand about using an Atomos Recorder with a mirrorless camera to boost its video ooomphh.

[BernardC]

Let's hope they can do BlackMagic RAW at the same time. It's a much more useful format because it is native to DaVinci Resolve.

I am working on a ProRes RAW project, and we need to take a hop through FCP (or Premiere) first before colour-correcting in Resolve, which is a bother. It would be much easier if we could edit directly in Resolve.

[Svetozar]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Let's hope they can do BlackMagic RAW at the same time. It's a much more useful format because it is native to DaVinci Resolve.

I am working on a ProRes RAW project, and we need to take a hop through FCP (or Premiere) first before colour-correcting in Resolve, which is a bother. It would be much easier if we could edit directly in Resolve.

Yes Blackmagic RAW would put this Leica to the top Cinema-Mirrorless Cameras.(for me it is already)

I am not sure they will do it at the same time but let's hope they will do it anyway.

It would really make SL2-S a little beast ! I personally would love to see that.

It is possible as we can see on the latest S1H BRAW upgrade few days ago.

It is just a matter of will, investment and their strategy.

Let's hope for the best !

 

 

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

 

I am working on a ProRes RAW project, and we need to take a hop through FCP (or Premiere) first before colour-correcting in Resolve, which is a bother. It would be much easier if we could edit directly in Resolve.

interesting

Edited April 8, 2021 by frame-it

[Photoworks]

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To me it is still a favor of the month, both BRAW and ProresRaw.

I find the only benefit is a kelvin correction. I use a Blackmagic camera in Braw only because the compression is so good at 5;1 that don have to use the ProRes 444.

For now to shot RAW the steps are. Color-balance, shoot alway in native ISO (avast in post) otherwise the noise is a problem, decide on usable compression.

In the editing part you need to take care of WB, lens correction, noise redaction, sharpening and editing. Sure proves is easy on the system, but all this corrections are intensive.

Most DP only shoot RAW in a few selected cases. Most of the time if you shoot LOG with correct WB and exposure you get fast the same results In post, with internal recording and less data to deal with.
At the end it comes on how good you are at lighting and exposure and then the story is king. If it looks on the monitor it will be good in post too.

 

[BernardC]

39 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Most DP only shoot RAW in a few selected cases.

The project that I am working on is one of those. Lots of time-lapse, lots of uncontrolled location lighting (including some inside/outside shots). The shooting ratio isn't high, compared to narrative work, and we only get one take for most shots. The extra storage is the least of our concerns.

On a narrative shoot I totally agree. The DP will have lighting levels and colour balance dialed-in, and you are shooting dozens of different setups per day, with multiple takes of each setup. Same thing with a live-action-style doc where you keep cameras rolling all day, hoping something will happen.

[cirke]

but it will remain in DNG format ?

[Slender]

3 hours ago, cirke said:

but it will remain in DNG format ?

?

DNG is for still images only..... or are you refering to:

CinemaDNG? It is a version of RAW for video... if you open a CineDNG file it you see all of your (not moving) frames individually presented as DNG files. The Sigma FP uses this for its raw video.

Still image capture remains un-affected: DNG 14 bits (or 12 if you use the 25fps mode on the SL2s).

[simon_hsn]

Really looking forward to the SL platform receiving the ProResRaw update. 

You are gifted a 12 bit file with 4.4.4. color sampling, ability to completely control your WB in post (this is huge), snappy editing performance and file sizes that are similar to 10 bit ProResHQ. 

However, it does come with a few responsitibilities, including the need for post noise reduction, lens correction and sharpening (all typical in video raw workflow). 

Consider ProRes Raw as another option for when you need it. Otherwise, the 10 bit internal 4.2.2. 400 MB/s is already pretty decent.

I can highly suggest to have a look at the part 1 and 2 videos from DP journey. The subject matter is explained very well here, albeit with reference to the A7SIII: 

Part 1:

 

 

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, simon_hsn said:

However, it does come with a few responsitibilities, including the need for post noise reduction, lens correction and sharpening (all typical in video raw workflow). 

I disagree with this sentiment.

I've shot raw a decade on my Red cameras and a few projects on a Canon C500Mk2, never on the Alexa because there's the terrific ProRes444 option, no need for raw recording. Neither was sharpening, noise-reduction or lens correction part of my daily routine when shooting raw. In the finishing process, said steps are only necessary when accidentally focus is soft or when exposure has been missed, and Neatvideo comes into play to fix the issue.

Actually, the beauty of raw is the sensor data readout without in-camera processing and saving literally raw picture data. That way, delicate texture can be maintained (what Alexa's ProRes444 does nicely too and h264 not so much). Of course, that doesn't allow for high-ISO exposures. For instance, Arri suggests using ISO 800 for best results when DR and noise are supposed to be in balance. Exposing with higher ISO would require at some point noise-reduction, which kills the texture and makes for clean pictures. A great recipe to turn the delicate digital film camera Alexa into a less delicate video camera.

Lens-correction (reversely done) was/is only a problem for the 3D CGI folks to match plates unless one shoots with mediocre glass for some reason. Lens-correction is not a mandatory part of a raw workflow.

I haven't shot with ProRes Raw yet, but on the contrary to Arri's and Red's workflows, you cannot change WB in the ProResRaw SDK. At least that isn't something the white paper mentions. https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/docs/Apple_ProRes_RAW.pdf

I don't expect the Leica SL2-S to function differently when ProResRaw is enabled. But I'm not sure how much Leica is manipulating the recorded video anyway. At least I have the feeling that from ISO 400-1600 Leica isn't doing much. From ISO 3200 onwards I suspect that some noise-reduction kicks in. But I can be wrong.

In my very humble opinion, not everyone who's creating a shiny YouTube video is an expert. 

[Slender]

I am only afraid SL2 will be left out of this.... but then again I am happy with the look of the ALL-I 400mbps Log up to 3200iso (or 6400 in 5K mode pixel-to-pixel) with or without the Atomos recording.... And when "Still" time is on... the 48MP really grew on me in a way I didnt expect it too... So I wouldn't trade down my SL2 to SL2s... I'd rather have both.

Also to be fair @hansvons the DOP journey host Shariff seems to be a legit DP in his field of play(Indie East Coast productions). Unlike Gerald Undone, he actually works on set, not just on test benches. (I like Gerald Undone too, even if sometimes it's confusing to follow some videos of his).

Edited April 10, 2021 by Slender

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Slender said:

Also to be fair @hansvons the DOP journey host Shariff seems to be a legit DP in his field of play(Indie East Coast productions).

I'm not familiar with the YouTube photography/video tech folks, so I can't comment on that. But as I understood it simon_hsn has been referring to a YouTube vide in his post. I'm the  last person who believes to know the world. But I have some first-hand experience on the mentioned issue, and I felt to respond and clarify before people shy away from raw video aquisition because is seems to be post-heavy. It is not. My sincere apologies if someone feels offended.

[Slender]

No offense at all, I was just giving my (favorable) opinion about the author of said video enclosed above

[simon_hsn]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

I'm not familiar with the YouTube photography/video tech folks, so I can't comment on that. But as I understood it simon_hsn has been referring to a YouTube vide in his post. I'm the  last person who believes to know the world. But I have some first-hand experience on the mentioned issue, and I felt to respond and clarify before people shy away from raw video aquisition because is seems to be post-heavy. It is not. My sincere apologies if someone feels offended.

I did not feel offended. Quite the contrary, I appreciated a lot that you shared your first hand expierence.

For me, this only goes to show that there are different workflows. However, the cine and photoworld come closer together, which inherently brings up issues to solve.

I do want to eleborate my above statement a bit though and bring it into context: 

1. Post noise reduction: If you shoot at the optimal ISO gain setting as you suggested and you have a proper lighting setup at place, this step is probably not needed, I agree completely. However, as ProResRaw is indeed raw sensor data as you mentioned (albeit compressed) I think it is necessary to apply some noise reduction correction IF you leave the optimal ISO gain setting (e.g. high iso) and IF you want your footage to look as clean as the internal 10 bit file, which DOES apply noise correction. 

2. Post lens correction: Probably not an issue if you shoot with expensive cine lenses that are constructed with that in mind (e.g. Leica cine lenses). However, many Leica SL hybrid shooters will probably use the lenses available for the platform and those are often constructed with digital correction in mind. These corrections are applied for all internal recording across all manufactures, aka distortion correction, vignetting and chromatic aberation. AGAIN it comes down to you personal judgement, but I would want to have my footage corrected. Turn of lens correction of the Leica 24-90 and shoot at 24 mm at f2.8 and you would see what I am talking about: very visible corner shading/vignetting. 

3. Post sharpening: This is an interesting topic altogether. Again, as we are capturing raw sensor data, NO sharpening is applied to the footage, unlike for most manufactures’ internally recorded footage. Most DPs prefer a less sharp look (me included) as it looks more organic or film-like. That is why many dial down the sharpening for internally recorded footage anyway. A good example would be the Sony a7sIII footage, which does get sharpened quite a bit and is criticized to be looking too „digital“ for that reason. 

To sum it up, off course, anyone can feel free to leave the raw footage untreated, but if you strive for technical perfection, it could become necessary and you would need to know what you do. 

I hope this clarifies my initial thought process a bit more. 

Edited April 10, 2021 by simon_hsn

[simon_hsn]

16 hours ago, hansvons said:

I haven't shot with ProRes Raw yet, but on the contrary to Arri's and Red's workflows, you cannot change WB in the ProResRaw SDK. At least that isn't something the white paper mentions. https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/docs/Apple_ProRes_RAW.pdf

I agree, this is not mentioned in the original whitepaper, however the funcitonality was added later and it is now possible with some cameras. 

Here’s is the current list of cameras that offer post WB correction and post ISO control: 
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204203#proresraw

Edited April 10, 2021 by simon_hsn

[hansvons]

@simon_hsn Hi Simon, Thanks for your thoughtful post. Much appreciated!

2 hours ago, simon_hsn said:

Turn of lens correction of the Leica 24-90 and shoot at 24 mm at f2.8 and you would see what I am talking about: very visible corner shading/vignetting. 

Recently I bought a 24-90. I find it a premium photography zoom lens. It does work nicely on people and landscape, not so much on architecture. You're absolutely right; spherical aberrations (and vignetting) are plain to see and require some lens correction, which, in C1, the 24-90 profile isn't doing as one would expect - you have to adjust manually via the generic profile. But in video land, such issues are much more forgivable. The subjects are moving, the camera is panning, tilting, moving, architecture is rarely the core subject. Often, DoPs crave for vintage lenses to mitigate that perfect digital-ness, at least I do - unless I'm shooting a pack-shot that requires a rectilinear lens (mainly I rent for such purposes Masterprimes). I don't care much about vignetting or potholing, as they say. I don't shoot charts. I like a lens to show dimensionality, be gentle to skin tones in their colour reproduction and many more. In the end, that's the reason why we talk here on the forums, the pleasure of celebrating the analogue soul that great glass has.

For me, the SL2-S is a new chapter in my creative life. I've never owned a hybrid camera. I never shot projects on a camera that has the form factor of a classic DSLR. But I figured I'd missed a lot if I'd pass that option. I already found that working with a hybrid camera somewhat emancipates me from being tied to a crew, from taking things too seriously, and, maybe, from expecting the perfect picture. Being able to shoot stills in the finest quality while on a solo video project isn't only a bonus but, for me, a door to a new way of thinking. Just a few days ago, I enjoyed shooting a project by switching from video to stills and vice versa in a second and many times.

I'm writing this because I might have a different objective than others when talking about cameras. I don't expect my SL2-S to become a proper cinema camera. But I want it to produce great colour (what it does best in class). And if it's able to exhibit delicate texture, it'll be the icing on the cake. I'm probably not a mainstream user, and perhaps that's the reason why I don't like watching camera reviews on YouTube. But I know that there are great people out there who do a terrific job on that. In creativity, there's no right or wrong.

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[simon_hsn]

Now firmware 2.0 of the SL2-S got released today, I am curious for any news regarding ProResRaw on the SL2-S. I hope it will be included in a firmware 3.0 release rather sooner than later

[Aaron Daniel]

1 hour ago, simon_hsn said:

Now firmware 2.0 of the SL2-S got released today, I am curious for any news regarding ProResRaw on the SL2-S. I hope it will be included in a firmware 3.0 release rather sooner than later

Really hoping so as well! I've been keeping an eye on Atomos and Blackmagic updates as well