"New" Noctilux 1.2/50mm Chrome

[Ivar B]

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Many of us were pleased when this lens was launched. I had no intention of buying one - least of all the chrome version with its price tag.

Not that long ago, Leica launched the Apo-50 in red. A very hot item as well.

Now I see that the 1.2/50 in Chrome end up with dealers - reselling at several times the official price. Indeed, one dealer offers 3 to the highest bidder and I hear 50 - 75 000 Euro as the price. The red Apo 2/50 had the same destiny. 

How do you feel about these special lenses apparently being bought by many who only buy since there is an opportunity to resell immediately after with a healthy profit? People are free to do what they like of course, but it is perhaps in Leicas best interest long term that the rare products end up with someone who likes them.

There is a similar story in the watch market. Prestige producer Patek Philippe recently discontinued their most most demanded model, the Nautilus 5111. The list price is around 30 000 Euros, but you will never find one new and used ones sell for up to 100 000 Euros I see. Why did Patek discontinue this extremely successful product? There are several reasons, but they don`t want one of their products to be an item for speculators only. They want their products bought by people who like them - not people who buy them only for resale. I don`t think Leica can do much about this, but allowing their dealers to sell their products for several times the official price, is not problem free either. 

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[pedaes]

Leica are presumably happy - maybe see it as a marketing plus point- or they would not restrict the number available which would kill this profiteering dead.

13 minutes ago, Ivar B said:

Many of us were pleased when this lens was launched. I had no intention of buying one - least of all the chrome version with its price tag.

Not that long ago, Leica launched the Apo-50 in red. A very hot item as well.

Now I see that the 1.2/50 in Chrome end up with dealers - reselling at several times the official price. Indeed, one dealer offers 3 to the highest bidder and I hear 50 - 75 000 Euro as the price. The red Apo 2/50 had the same destiny. 

How do you feel about these special lenses apparently being bought by many who only buy since there is an opportunity to resell immediately after with a healthy profit? People are free to do what they like of course, but it is perhaps in Leicas best interest long term that the rare products end up with someone who likes them.

There is a similar story in the watch market. Prestige producer Patek Philippe recently discontinued their most most demanded model, the Nautilus 5111. The list price is around 30 000 Euros, but you will never find one new and used ones sell for up to 100 000 Euros I see. Why did Patek discontinue this extremely successful product? There are several reasons, but they don`t want one of their products to be an item for speculators only. They want their products bought by people who like them - not people who buy them only for resale. I don`t think Leica can do much about this, but allowing their dealers to sell their products for several times the official price, is not problem free either. 

How do I feel? I feel sorry for the genuine user who would like one, but all of us would like the opportunity to get a little back on the 000's £$€'s we have 'invested' in Leica.

[T25UFO]

How do I feel?  I don't like it, but you can't control the market.  The price of any desirable product produced in limited numbers will find its own level.  Would I pay $5,000 for a lens hood for the original f1.2 Noctilux?  In the words of John McEnroe: 'you cannot be serious'.  But some people will and that's just how the supply and demand market operates.

I think the red 50mm APO is awful - I wouldn't have it as a gift, but that's just me.  I was, however, prepared to pay a little extra for the retro black chrome version because I like that model and it is now permanently glued to my M10 Mono!

You mention Patek Philippe and the sure fire way to drive up the price of any truly desirable product is to stop making it.  Look what happened when Van Gogh stopped painting 😆

[pippy]

6 hours ago, Ivar B said:

...How do you feel about these special lenses apparently being bought by many who only buy since there is an opportunity to resell immediately after with a healthy profit?...

Normally I'd say I couldn't care less about the whims of collectors and the faintly ridiculous prices they are willing to pay for a piece of the 'True Cross' but, oddly enough, in the case of the 50mm f1.2 in general (not so much the chrome-finish version) I find there are many conflicting thoughts which occur to me which are far too complex to go into here.

Philip.

Edited March 24, 2021 by pippy

[fotografr]

Personally, I buy lenses to use--not put on a shelf to look at. I have zero desire to ever put a red lens on my camera, or a pink one, or a blue one. However, if others want to do this I suppose it helps Leica stay healthy as a company. As to dealers charging three times retail for a"collectable,"  that's not a good thing. Leica AG tightly controls prices with their dealers to insure they don't sell at discounts and as long as that practice continues I think they should also control prices in the other direction. 

[pippy]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

...Leica AG tightly controls prices with their dealers to insure they don't sell at discounts and as long as that practice continues I think they should also control prices in the other direction...

Once a Leica lens (or anythig else) has been bought and is in public circulation how might Leica be able to control market prices? The lens is no longer their property.

Philip.

[fotografr]

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1 hour ago, pippy said:

Once a Leica lens (or anythig else) has been bought and is in public circulation how might Leica be able to control market prices? The lens is no longer their property.

Philip.

As I said, it is with their dealers that they control their prices. It's quite easy. If the dealer fails to sell at the prices dictated by Leica, they get dropped. This is why when you compare prices from one Leica Store to another, they are exactly the same. With the secondary market, of course they have no control.

Edited March 24, 2021 by fotografr

[darylgo]

The number of camera stores is dwindling.  If it allows a dealer to stay in business rather than shutter their store I would be less inclined to be critical of the practice.  

[fotografr]

9 hours ago, darylgo said:

The number of camera stores is dwindling.  If it allows a dealer to stay in business rather than shutter their store I would be less inclined to be critical of the practice.  

I think the number of stores are dwindling due to internet sales and, for the past year, restrictions due to covid-19. I don't think trying to sell a $16,000 retail lens for $65,000 is going to help anyone stay in business. When I see that kind of thing taking place, it makes me want to avoid the business because I don't appreciate being price gauged.

[wattsy]

17 hours ago, fotografr said:

As I said, it is with their dealers that they control their prices. It's quite easy. If the dealer fails to sell at the prices dictated by Leica, they get dropped. This is why when you compare prices from one Leica Store to another, they are exactly the same. With the secondary market, of course they have no control.

I think that is already the case for official Leica dealers. I might be mistaken but I'm assuming that the dealers selling the Noctilux at 3x Leica RRP are independent, grey market, dealers like Schouten. They of course can sell at whatever price they choose but dealers directly supplied by Leica are presumably under certain obligations with regard to pricing? Even then, a less scrupulous official dealer could always channel new stock through a third party and then sell a Noctilux as a mint second hand item for €50k.

It's not something I'm particularly bothered about but Leica might like to consider the impact on the general brand image of this blatant, greedy profiteering (that doesn't benefit the company financially – at least directly) and perhaps think about dropping the idea of limited editions for products like a popular lens. Of course, Leica's limited production capacity means that demand will outstrip supply for products like the new Noctilux – and lenses will be resold for a profit – but at least regular punters will have the option of ordering and waiting for a delivery without having to worry about the product selling out.

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

I think the number of stores are dwindling due to internet sales and, for the past year, restrictions due to covid-19. I don't think trying to sell a $16,000 retail lens for $65,000 is going to help anyone stay in business. When I see that kind of thing taking place, it makes me want to avoid the business because I don't appreciate being price gauged.

Buy the black version at the official retail price.  Problem solved. 

If the chrome lenses that are priced at 3x or more of retail or are being sold to the highest bidder auction style sit on dealer's shelves for years on end, dealers will eventually get the message.

Quote

...Leica might like to consider the impact on the general brand image of this blatant, greedy profiteering (that doesn't benefit the company financially – at least directly) and perhaps think about dropping the idea of limited editions for products like a popular lens...

I would like to see a situation where the chrome lenses were priced at perhaps $100-200 USD higher than the black lenses, and made in unrestricted quantities.  Selling more chrome lenses at a lower profit margin would be a better scenario for everyone involved (except for those driven by blatant greed). 

Images made with black lenses are in every way equal to images made with chrome lenses.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[insideline]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

Buy the black version at the official retail price.  Problem solved. 

If the chrome lenses that are priced at 3x or more of retail or are being sold to the highest bidder auction style sit on dealer's shelves for years on end, dealers will eventually get the message.

I would like to see a situation where the chrome lenses were priced at perhaps $100-200 USD higher than the black lenses, and made in unrestricted quantities.  Selling more chrome lenses at a lower profit margin would be a better scenario for everyone involved (except for those driven by blatant greed). 

Images made with black lenses are in every way equal to images made with chrome lenses.

Unfortunately Leica could never put the retail cost of the all brass billet machined silver bodied version at only $100-200 over the alloy bodied black model, regardless of how many they would make as the OEM cost to manufacture the billet brass lens is many times higher then alloy. Remember when you back out from retail to wholesale, then distributor back down to the actual bill of goods cost for the product manager at Leica, the real cost is multiple times smaller than the Retail. I worked my entire life in OEM manufacturing for a high end sporting goods manufacturer and people would faint if they new what the difference between the original OEM cost to make the product vs the end consumer retail. Point being there is too much cost to make the brass version of the new 50 1.2 to allow it to sell for only a few hundred more than the alloy. 

[NigelG]

57 minutes ago, insideline said:

Unfortunately Leica could never put the retail cost of the all brass billet machined silver bodied version at only $100-200 over the alloy bodied black model, regardless of how many they would make as the OEM cost to manufacture the billet brass lens is many times higher then alloy. Remember when you back out from retail to wholesale, then distributor back down to the actual bill of goods cost for the product manager at Leica, the real cost is multiple times smaller than the Retail. I worked my entire life in OEM manufacturing for a high end sporting goods manufacturer and people would faint if they new what the difference between the original OEM cost to make the product vs the end consumer retail. Point being there is too much cost to make the brass version of the new 50 1.2 to allow it to sell for only a few hundred more than the alloy. 

Leica USA online store current prices:

50mm Summilux ASPH Chrome  (brass-bodied) $4695

50mm Summilux ASPH Black (alloy-bodied) $4395

 

[insideline]

53 minutes ago, NigelG said:

Leica USA online store current prices:

50mm Summilux ASPH Chrome  (brass-bodied) $4695

50mm Summilux ASPH Black (alloy-bodied) $4395

 

Actually the prices are $4395 for the black alloy made in Germany and $5095 for the black chrome also made in Germany and as of April 1st there is $100 increase for both so $700 price different between alloy and brass. 

[fotografr]

4 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Buy the black version at the official retail price.  Problem solved. 

It's not a problem for me because I'm not looking for a silver chrome version. I'm quite happy with a black alloy copy. I was simply pointing out that I would be reluctant to patronize a business I perceived to be price gouging. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by fotografr

[darylgo]

7 hours ago, fotografr said:

I think the number of stores are dwindling due to internet sales and, for the past year, restrictions due to covid-19. I don't think trying to sell a $16,000 retail lens for $65,000 is going to help anyone stay in business. When I see that kind of thing taking place, it makes me want to avoid the business because I don't appreciate being price gauged.

That's the wonderful thing about living in a free society, we can choose.  

[NigelG]

1 hour ago, insideline said:

Actually the prices are $4395 for the black alloy made in Germany and $5095 for the black chrome also made in Germany and as of April 1st there is $100 increase for both so $700 price different between alloy and brass. 

Black chrome is the Retro version which is a different lens. Difference between brass 50 lux ASPH in silver chrome and black anodised is $300. Attached from Leica USA webstore

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Edited March 25, 2021 by NigelG

[fotografr]

19 minutes ago, NigelG said:

Black chrome is the Retro version which is a different lens. Difference between brass 50 lux ASPH in silver chrome and black anodised is $300. Attached from Leica USA webstore

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Mark (insideline) was pointing out the difference in price between the two black versions--one being a retro version brass and the other a standard version alloy.

He wasn't comparing the standard version silver and standard version black. 

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[NigelG]

Yes but he was talking about production cost differentials between brass and aluminium alloy lenses.
The silver 50 lux ASPH is brass, the black anodised is alloy and the price difference between the two is $300 despite the supposed “many times higher” manufacturing cost for a brass version of a lens.

4 hours ago, insideline said:

Unfortunately Leica could never put the retail cost of the all brass billet machined silver bodied version at only $100-200 over the alloy bodied black model, regardless of how many they would make as the OEM cost to manufacture the billet brass lens is many times higher then alloy

The pricing of the silver Noct 1.2 was not related to manufacturing costs...

Edited March 25, 2021 by NigelG

[insideline]

4 hours ago, NigelG said:

Yes but he was talking about production cost differentials between brass and aluminium alloy lenses.
The silver 50 lux ASPH is brass, the black anodised is alloy and the price difference between the two is $300 despite the supposed “many times higher” manufacturing cost for a brass version of a lens.

The pricing of the silver Noct 1.2 was not related to manufacturing costs...

Again NO for the last time. The differential between the BRASS version not silver alloy is $700 please come up to speed on how these lenses are manufactured as you posted pictures of two alloy bodies lenses thank you.