Will I regret returning my 50 Summicron-M (non-APO)?

[hdmesa]

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Can anyone help me see what I'm missing in the 50 Cron? I love the sharpness across the frame even at f/2. I love the small size. But the color signature is, well, I guess subdued or muted are the kindest words I can think of. This was going to be my only lens for the M10-R, but I feel like it falls short of the color I get with my Q-P.

I just got the CV 35 f/1.2 III for close focus and the f/1.2 rendering, and I have the CV 50 APO and the CV 75 f/1.5 on the way.

Does anyone think the Leica 50 Cron non-APO is still worth keeping given the above lenses that will be in my bag?

[LeicaR10]

Hdmesa,   As I have mentioned before in other threads, it all depends on your genre of photography.  In reality, you might consider this question.  What did the 50 cron not do for you what your inbound lenses might do for you?   The 50 cron is an exceptional Leica lens for almost all genres of photography.  If you want to improve the color signature, you can make some presets for import of the 50 cron files, add some vibrance and maybe some contrast, etc., to the files.  Try making presets for say landscapes, portraits or whatever you wish.  Once you look at the files new "look"...you might realize the new lenses were a waste of money and send them back.  Most important, asking well meaning forum members for their opinions is all well and good, but ultimately it is solely your decision.  Last, as I have written before on the forum, it is the photograph that is paramount and reason why photographers use their camera tools to either create mere photos or masterpiece photographs.  The best photographs are created by those who understand and use the camera and lens to create masterful photographs that cause the viewer to;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  In the meantime, I encourage you to go create superb photographs with your 50 cron and enjoy capturing that moment in time.  I hope my 2 cents helps.  r/ Mark

Edited March 15, 2021 by LeicaR10

[lct]

59 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

But the color signature is, well, I guess subdued or muted are the kindest words I can think of. This was going to be my only lens for the M10-R, but I feel like it falls short of the color I get with my Q-P.

Colors have nothing to do with the lens, unless you're using a Summicron from the sixties. Are you shooting jpegs only? If so the M10-R firmware must be the culprit, unless it is the Q-P's, or both. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Colors have nothing to do with the lens

I meant that colors have little to do with the lens but i can't seem to edit my posts since the last forum update sorry.

[Ecar]

48 minutes ago, lct said:

I meant that colors have little to do with the lens but i can't seem to edit my posts since the last forum update sorry.

Check out those three dots top right.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Colors have nothing to do with the lens, unless you're using a Summicron from the sixties. Are you shooting jpegs only? If so the M10-R firmware must be the culprit, unless it is the Q-P's, or both. 

52 minutes ago, lct said:

I meant that colors have little to do with the lens but i can't seem to edit my posts since the last forum update sorry.

Maybe not the 60s, but it’s been optically the same design since 1979 (v4). Likely they haven’t changed it much due to its popularity and performance. It does have a unique color and contrast signature that differs from some of the newer lenses with which I’m more familiar.

[hdmesa]

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2 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Hdmesa,   As I have mentioned before in other threads, it all depends on your genre of photography.  In reality, you might consider this question.  What did the 50 cron not do for you what your inbound lenses might do for you?   The 50 cron is an exceptional Leica lens for almost all genres of photography.  If you want to improve the color signature, you can make some presets for import of the 50 cron files, add some vibrance and maybe some contrast, etc., to the files.  Try making presets for say landscapes, portraits or whatever you wish.  Once you look at the files new "look"...you might realize the new lenses were a waste of money and send them back.  Most important, asking well meaning forum members for their opinions is all well and good, but ultimately it is solely your decision.  Last, as I have written before on the forum, it is the photograph that is paramount and reason why photographers use their camera tools to either create mere photos or masterpiece photographs.  The best photographs are created by those who understand and use the camera and lens to create masterful photographs that cause the viewer to;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  In the meantime, I encourage you to go create superb photographs with your 50 cron and enjoy capturing that moment in time.  I hope my 2 cents helps.  r/ Mark

Great advice, thank you.

I’m leaning toward keeping it for when I want the smallest and lightest possible option but still have f2 and excellent sharpness across the frame. 

[otto.f]

I don’t know about your VC’s but I never missed my Summicron 50 since I have the Elmar-M 50. I recognize you color problem with it, and am happy with the colors of the Elmar. As long as you have the VC 50, you can always wait and see if you want a Summilux 50 asph later on, which is great in colors.

[otto.f]

3 hours ago, lct said:

I meant that colors have little to do with the lens but i can't seem to edit my posts since the last forum update sorry.

There are real differences in color rendering between lenses, to say that this is 'little' is also a bit understated. My own experiences and Sean Reid's tests underpin this belief. I see quite a difference between a Summilux 75 from the eighties and the APO Summicron 90 from the nineties. The same counts for 50cron and 50 lux asph (which is in effect actually an APO), the 35cron iv and the 35 FLE. This might all be overruled by sensor technology but in slide films you will notice much more. 

[jaapv]

15 minutes ago, otto.f said:

There are real differences in color rendering between lenses, to say that this is 'little' is also a bit understated. My own experiences and Sean Reid's tests underpin this belief. I see quite a difference between a Summilux 75 from the eighties and the APO Summicron 90 from the nineties. The same counts for 50cron and 50 lux asph (which is in effect actually an APO), the 35cron iv and the 35 FLE. This might all be overruled by sensor technology but in slide films you will notice much more. 

This is true, but as you indicate, in digital photography this is completely irrelevant. A lens can be profiled as much as a camera can, to harmonize the colour rendering to other lenses.

Personally I would never depend on the camera or lens to determine the final photograph's colour and tonal range in this digital age which gives us simple control.
With me it is an essential  part of the photographic "language" and sets the mood and emphasis of the final image, from colour balance and intensity to muted and even B&W.

[Printmaker]

The 50 Summicron is a great lens. Sure it is not as sexy as the 50 Lux or as perfect as the 50 APO but it produces stunning results. I keep it and add a 75 Summicron to your kit.

[microview]

If by VC 50 APO you mean the recent f2 APO Lanthar then, apart from weight (possibly a serious consideration) I would find the 50 Summicron redundant. I have a Leitz special edition and when the UK lockdown eases will take it to a shop for commission sale.

[cboy]

7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

This was going to be my only lens for the M10-R, but I feel like it falls short of the color I get with my Q-P.

I just got the CV 35 f/1.2 III for close focus and the f/1.2 rendering, and I have the CV 50 APO and the CV 75 f/1.5 on the way.

Theres a reason why the non apo cron has a long standing legacy and i suggest you to ponder its value before giving in. 

I understand the colour may not pop as newer lenses or even have lesser acuity or microcontrast but mandler lenses have a look synonymous to leica, if that has anything to go by, which is still sought after even today.

Often using legacy glass pairs well with modern digital cameras as the lens takes the edge off the modern look.

Depending on your workflow it maybe best to not have a lens that 'straight out of camera' has the most contrast or pop since at a lower threshold itd be easier to manipulate in post to your desired taste.

That said imho its hard not to say the non apo cron is excellent for bw which i stand by.

Edited March 15, 2021 by cboy

[lct]

6 hours ago, otto.f said:

There are real differences in color rendering between lenses, to say that this is 'little' is also a bit understated. My own experiences and Sean Reid's tests underpin this belief. I see quite a difference between a Summilux 75 from the eighties and the APO Summicron 90 from the nineties. The same counts for 50cron and 50 lux asph (which is in effect actually an APO), the 35cron iv and the 35 FLE. This might all be overruled by sensor technology but in slide films you will notice much more. 

I don't use slides since the twenties but i still use late versions of all those lenses and besides some slightly blueish or reddish hues, i struggle to see significant color differences between them. The OP was asking about the "subdued or muted" color rendition of his M10-R compared to a Q camera and any Summicron 50/2 v4 or v5 would have little (i thought "nothing" in fact TBH ) to do with that IMHO. Just used the three dots top right to add "YMMV" (thanks Ecar) bit i can't seem to change the fonts this way, what am i missing again?

Edited March 15, 2021 by lct

[Ko.Fe.]

Owning all optical  formulas of regular Crons versions was interesting experience to me. I was selling one version and moving to another. Once I have tried all optical formulas, I became Cons free.  . 

The only Cron I'm kind of missing is collapsible one. It was best 50mm lens on BW film, prints. But I don't do bw and prints this much anymore. 

On digital M typ 3 and typ 4 optical formulas offered very pleasing colors. But I'm not missing it with my less expensive 50-es from fifties :). I like Canon 50 1.8 LTM build, material quality over Crons. It has silky smooth focus. 

CV 50 APO is not worse or better. It is amazing lens even on BW film, but by its own. Very sharp where it in focus , but nothing clinical and bokeh is just as neutral as on Crons, but more smooth, it seems. If I would looking for serious 50 again this would be my choice. New, priced for general public and APO.

[Alberti]

It is a hard advice to build your own profile; WHO CAN DO THAT?

I do recognize some of the problems stated: my 50-cron V is different from my previous version III. 
And I have experienced that the lens was marvelous on the M8 but less so on the M240. For me, the pleasure factor dropped. [For that reason I too experimented with old Japanese. Lenses for instance.]

In my opinion- that is, I can expect that the summicron profile made by either Leica (in-camera) or Lightroom has been tuned a bit. I read that the summicron supposedly has a high saturation. Maybe the ‘experts’ decided to tune them down a bit? 

[rpsawin]

13 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Does anyone think the Leica 50 Cron non-APO is still worth keeping given the above lenses that will be in my bag?

Send it to me and I will dispose of it for you...😀

[hdmesa]

27 minutes ago, Alberti said:

It is a hard advice to build your own profile; WHO CAN DO THAT?

I do recognize some of the problems stated: my 50-cron V is different from my previous version III. 
And I have experienced that the lens was marvelous on the M8 but less so on the M240. For me, the pleasure factor dropped. [For that reason I too experimented with old Japanese. Lenses for instance.]

In my opinion- that is, I can expect that the summicron profile made by either Leica (in-camera) or Lightroom has been tuned a bit. I read that the summicron supposedly has a high saturation. Maybe the ‘experts’ decided to tune them down a bit? 

I thought the same thing might be happening since I was using the 35 Lux profile for the CV 35 1.2, so I shot my 50 Cron yesterday with (Auto) and without (Off) the lens profile, and the color was identical for the SOOC JPEGs. I processed them in Capture One, which does not apply a lens profile and uses a generic DNG Neutral profile for the camera, and the CV was still more saturated with the same default settings applied. I suppose it's still possible that the camera is applying adjustments like saturation and contrast to the DNG based on the coded lens even with the profile "Off". It does seem strange to me that the 50 Cron files are so desaturated when the old lenses I adapt to the GFX and R5 are quite vivid for color – Contax Zeiss C/Y and Minolta Rokkor/MD/MC. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

5 hours ago, cboy said:

Theres a reason why the non apo cron has a long standing legacy and i suggest you to ponder its value before giving in. 

I understand the colour may not pop as newer lenses or even have lesser acuity or microcontrast but mandler lenses have a look synonymous to leica, if that has anything to go by, which is still sought after even today.

Often using legacy glass pairs well with modern digital cameras as the lens takes the edge off the modern look.

Depending on your workflow it maybe best to not have a lens that 'straight out of camera' has the most contrast or pop since at a lower threshold itd be easier to manipulate in post to your desired taste.

That said imho its hard not to say the non apo cron is excellent for bw which i stand by.

My Minolta Rokkor 58 f/1.2 (30-40 years old?) has the exact same lens flare signature as my 50 Cron, that red circle with the cross-type structure inside. But the Minolta lens has insane color saturation, at least on the GFX and R5. I've read that during the time the Minolta MD/MC lenses were made that they collaborated often with Leica on lens design, so I was kind of expecting the Cron to look more like the Minolta. Of course, I'd have to adapt the Minolta to the M10-R to be sure, but I'm more likely going to adapt the Cron to the GFX and shoot it side-by-side with the Minolta 58, both at f/2.

Could it be more than the optical design and glass used and be something simpler like the lens coatings? Perhaps Leica is intentionally using special lens coatings to keep that "look" you describe. I may try holding one of my larger Zeiss T* UV filters over the lens and see if it makes any difference at all (for the T* coating, not for the UV filtering).

Edited March 15, 2021 by hdmesa

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Hallo,

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[Anbaric]

With 30 seconds work in Photoshop, you can make the images from that Summicron twice as saturated as you get by default from any other lens. The choice of camera, in-camera menu settings and post-processing software and settings make much more difference than the relatively subtle differences in colour rendering between high quality modern lenses, and you have a great deal of control over processing parameters. More vivid colours are just a slider setting away, and if you need a consistent, reproducible boost you just need a different profile. But right now, you seem to be comparing between lenses on different cameras, so the question is moot. The coating on your filter is designed to reduce reflections from the surface of the glass it is directly applied to, and it works because its thickness is a fraction of the wavelength of visible light. It will have no beneficial effect on the properties of a lens separated from the filter by several millimetres of air. Your lens will never be better than it is without a filter, but filter coating is helpful because it can reduce the negative impact of the filter (e.g. uncoated filters significantly increase the risk of flare).