Nicht immer nur Kaviar ... (English Version)

[wlaidlaw]

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Many thanks William. It is interesting to see the relative prices for the Leica 3.5cm Elmar at just RM 52 against RM 82 for the 5cm/f3.5 Zeiss Tessar but if you look at the Camera prices, the same RM 115 is charged for both the Zeiss and Leica 3.5cm lens cameras. This would imply that the Leica lens version was more profitable for Korelle. 

Wilson

[willeica]

Wilson, the 3.5 cm version was indeed the same price for both Zeiss and Leitz. There is no price quoted for a model supplied with a 5cm lens included, but the Leitz 5 cm at RM 52 was cheaper than the 5cm options from Meyer, Schneider and Zeiss at RM 70, 70 and 82 respectively. Note, however, that the Meyer option was f2.8, whereas the Schneider, Zeiss and Leitz options were all f3.5. Note too that the 5cm options were as 'zusatzobjektive' or 'additional lens'. Zeiss was the cream of the crop back then which makes the RM 115 price for the Zeiss and Leitz 3.5 cm options somewhat surprising. 

According to Hartmut Thiele, Leitz made 200 of the 3.5cm Korelle K model for Kochmann in 1933, but far less than that number exist today. I suspect that it was a 'slow seller'. 2 examples of the Leitz 7.5cm lens for the Korelle K were produced in 1934. There is no evidence, notwithstanding the low cost, of the 5cm lens being produced on Thiele's lists. Leitz got out of the market for supplying lenses to other manufacturers early on and concentrated on its own cameras. That and its use of the focal plane shutter rather than the easy to make cameras with Compur style shutters is one of the reasons why Leica is still with us today, while the other camera manufacturers are all gone. I have a slide presentation which I did for PCCGB on German Cameras of the 1920s and 30s with 'Compur Type' Shutters. It is about 70 Mb. I can send it to you by WeTransfer if you are interested. Let me know.

William 

 

[alan mcfall]

I have no experience with Kodak, but found this camera that has a Leica 39mm screw mount. Seems to be a Kodak Pony 135 brown bakelite, successor to the model 828 camera (mid 1950's), but I cannot find any evidence of a 39mm screw version. There is no viewfinder or any markings other than to use 35mm film. Perhaps for microscope applications? Does anyone know if it is original or modification by a craftsman? I measure the flange to film plane distance at 28.5mm.  Did Kodak use some leica parameters to create this?  I can see how the flange modification might be home made, but the top plate with no viewfinder seems starnge. Any help appreciated.

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[alan mcfall]

Looking further into my above post, has taken me into the field of dental photography. Of course, Leitz has a long history of offering products and techniques for scientific and medical photography. From the microscope plate cameras of the 1800's to modern digital devices, there were many technological break-throughs and advances. An interesting book of the pre war methods is "Die Leica in Beruf und Wissenschaft" by Heinrich Stockler, 1941. In the chapter on  Zahnarztliche Fogografie, we see the leica model iii, PLOOT, PAMOO, 90 elmar and bright lights. The Leica Manuals, 1935-1972, all have sections on Dental photography.

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One significant break through was the gas tube flash, perhaps extending from the early work of Edgerton, the 1950's saw an explosion of applications. In one instance, Lester A. Dine patented a circular ring flash and started a company, Medical Dental Photo Co.,  in New York. Their first cameras used Kodak Pony, Exa, Exakta, Practica and in some cases leica cameras. They are still in business, now Florida, with modern digital equipment. I have one of their early outfits based on the Pony.

 

The existing Kodak Anaston 51mm f 4.5 lens is used, there are 3 magnification filters the ring flash light and power supplies.  There are red, blue and green rods to set the focus distance.

The leica camera can be adapted in various ways with the PLOOT or Micro Ibsor. Poloroid cameras were also popular in their time of use. Today, when I go to the dentist, everything including the digitized x-rays are on a large TV screen during a procedure.  I expect a few forum members are dentist and have their own stories.

Edited May 11 by alan mcfall
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[Roland Zwiers]

On 3/28/2025 at 9:25 AM, wlaidlaw said:

Paul, 

When you say 6 x 9, do you mean inches or cm. I have a Rollex 6 x 9 roll film back for my approx 1909 vintage Wirgin Edixa folder with Meyer 105mm f2.8 Trioplan lens, as well as couple of cut film dark slides. I don't know what roll film the Rollex back takes. I have tried both 120 and 620, neither of which worked properly and jammed. I think it must need 616 film, which is even more obsolete than 620. 

Wilson

 

 My Rollex roll film backs are all designed for 120-film. Note that the rollers inside may have deteriorated: the rubber can have become as hard as stone.

Roand 

[Roland Zwiers]

On 6/1/2024 at 8:36 PM, wlaidlaw said:

Paul, 

Do you know if the company in the north of England do coating for one off photographic lenses. I have assembled a replica of the Leica my father used from 1940/41 when he was presented with it by the Scottish-Polish association for his work in resettling, supporting and finding housing and employment for the post-invasion Polish diaspora in the north of Scotland. It was stolen in Madrid in 1967. It was a IIIa, with 2 speed MOOLY and a 50mm Summar, which he had coated in the Netherlands post war (probably Oude Delft Delfinerin process). I have it all put together but I have been unable to find anyone to coat the lovely one owner and sold with the IIIa Summar lens. Malcolm Taylor no longer does lens coating. I sent him the camera and MOOLY for CLA of both and to have the lens coated. It came back (eventually after a lot of chasing) with the CLA's done but no coating on the lens. 

Wilson

The Dutch verb for applying a coating to a non-coated lens was: delfineren. This verb was，of course, invented by 'De Oude Delft', also known as 'Old Delft' .

Roland 

[wlaidlaw]

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5 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said:

 My Rollex roll film backs are all designed for 120-film. Note that the rollers inside may have deteriorated: the rubber can have become as hard as stone.

Roand 

It is not the rollers that is telling me that it was designed for 616, it is the very small locating pins on the roll film holders. They are around 2mm in diameter and do not appear to be worn. I believe this Rollex back was made by Balda, probably around 1933/34, soon after 616 film was released. 

Wilson

[pgk]

On 4/12/2025 at 9:55 AM, thomas_schertel said:

VP Exakta
Thomas

I just picjed up a Dallmeyer Wide-Angle from 1950 in VP Exacta fit - a fairly rare little lens which produces quite nice photos on my Arca Swiss custom camera although it really needs the very short bellows which is on order.

[pgk]

And FWIW I took my Arca Swiss hybrid out on Saturday and shot this using a Grubb Patent Doublet from 1865 - a 2 image stitch which should really be viewed at 3" wide to be seen as intended. Shot of the camera M9 35/1.4.

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Edited May 19 by pgk

[thomas_schertel]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb pgk:

I just picjed up a Dallmeyer Wide-Angle from 1950 in VP Exacta fit - a fairly rare little lens which produces quite nice photos on my Arca Swiss custom camera although it really needs the very short bellows which is on order.

Are you able to post a picture of the lens?

yours sincerely
Thomas

[pgk]

Here it is (photographed using a Taylor Taylor & Hobson Butal lens from ~1970). It seems fairly good but suffers from magenta caste off axis Probably very usable at 6x6 or maybe 6x7cm though. I am awaiting a very short bag bellows in order to try it properly. I can't find out much about the lenses available for the V P Exacta although if I get a flange made I may look for a 75mm Tessar as they seem fairly low cost.

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Edited May 20 by pgk

[pgk]

For anyoneone interested in the results of less than perfect optics here is a shot from one of my Grubb Patent Doublet lenses from 1865. This lens consists of two cemeted doublets around a central Waterhouse stop (and is most likely the forerunner of the Rapid Rectilinear patented by Dallmeyer in the same year; there was controvery at the time). It is obviously uncoated and has obvious signs of both central (significant) and edge (minor) separation in the front doublet and, whilst the glass surfaces are ok, they are far from pristine. It is still capable of delivering decent enough quality images though - here on a Sony A7II. Obsessing over small imperfections in the glass of lenses seems to be something of an academic exercise when a glance at this one shows them to be clearly visible and yet the image quality is still sufficiently high to be acceptable. At some point I will photograph the glass to illustrate just how imperfect it is.

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[thomas_schertel]

Yesterday I have been on the fair at Plech:

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Plaubel Roll Op II

Zeiss Ikon Baby Box Tengor

Braun Imperial Box

Adox Adrette

yours sincerely
Thomas

[wlaidlaw]

Interestingly there is some incorrect information about Wirgin on the Internet, saying the company was founded in 1935. My 6 x 9cm plate Wirgin with a Meyer trioplan 105mm/f2.8  and Deckel shutter was made some considerable time before 1935, I believe around 1922/3 from the DRP patent numbers on the back. 

Wilson

[willeica]

11 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Interestingly there is some incorrect information about Wirgin on the Internet, saying the company was founded in 1935. My 6 x 9cm plate Wirgin with a Meyer trioplan 105mm/f2.8  and Deckel shutter was made some considerable time before 1935, I believe around 1922/3 from the DRP patent numbers on the back. 

Wilson

Wilson, you may have a relatively rare early Wirgin, but I suspect the date may be later than you suggest, say around 1926 or 27. Some links to help with identification are here:

https://www.objektiv.dk/riess/wirgin_eng.html

https://mikeeckman.com/2016/07/wirgin-auta-1935/

http://www.kamerasamling.dk/wirgin_edixa/oversigt.html

https://www.collection-appareils.fr/general/html/listeV_imagettes.php

One issue with cameras from the 1920s, such as the Contessa or Zeiss Contessa, is that they often have 3 serial numbers, one for the camera, one for the lens and one for the shutter and then there are the DRP patent numbers on top of that. All of this makes them extremely difficult to date accurately. I have a collection of Contessa cameras from the 1920s and I have tried to date them many times, but I have failed. The best I could do was to determine an approximate date and chronological order for the cameras. Photo of some of my Contessas is below. They are festooned with serial and DRP numbers 

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William 

 

Edited May 27 by willeica

[pgk]

29 minutes ago, willeica said:

All of this makes them extremely difficult to date accurately.

This seems to be a theme running through photographic equipment production. On another forum I'm trying to help date early Taylor Taylor & Hobson lenses but their serial numbers are all over the place and it appears possible that early on they may have had two overlapping series of numbers for their Cooke lens production and others, perhaps, maybe. Some very low serial numbers appear on Cooke lenses but we know that if strictly chronological then they cannot have been made at the dates these numbers suggest as the lens had not yet been designed. For a highly precise engineering and optical firm this is very puzzling. If anyone has early (s/n< 20,000) please let me know - the engraving helps as does their type. The only way we will figure things out will be a fairly extensive spreadsheet of the earlier lenses so this is now what is being built up. Most early Cooke production consisted of fewer Series II but more Series III. Interestingly some of the shorter focal length are probably convertible to Leica as short telephotos and I can confir that they are very nice little lenses which perform well even ~130 years later. They have 'standardised' threads so are relatively easy to build adapters for and https://customphototools.com/for-taylor-taylor-and-hobson/ offers an LTM adapter off the shelf. This means that using an LTM or converted Helicoid is relatively easy and allows the lenses to be used with Live View.

Edited May 27 by pgk

[willeica]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

This seems to be a theme running through photographic equipment production. On another forum I'm trying to help date early Taylor Taylor & Hobson lenses but their serial numbers are all over the place and it appears possible that early on they may have had two overlapping series of numbers for their Cooke lens production and others, perhaps, maybe. Some very low serial numbers appear on Cooke lenses but we know that if strictly chronological then they cannot have been made at the dates these numbers suggest as the lens had not yet been designed. For a highly precise engineering and optical firm this is very puzzling. If anyone has early (s/n< 20,000) please let me know - the engraving helps as does their type. The only way we will figure things out will be a fairly extensive spreadsheet of the earlier lenses so this is now what is being built up. Most early Cooke production consisted of fewer Series II but more Series III. Interestingly some of the shorter focal length are probably convertible to Leica as short telephotos and I can confir that they are very nice little lenses which perform well even ~130 years later. They have 'standardised' threads so are relatively easy to build adapters for and https://customphototools.com/for-taylor-taylor-and-hobson/ offers an LTM adapter off the shelf. This means that using an LTM or converted Helicoid is relatively easy and allows the lenses to be used with Live View.

Leitz set a standard for serial numbers which few others can match as regards sequence and reliability. I have managed to date some Dallmeyer lenses, but it was difficult to follow the sequences. The big brass lens book by D'Agostini and Rose is occasionally useful for 19th Century stuff. Thiele's volumes are useful for German lenses of the 20th Century, but are not always wholly accurate. A whole other area are the German cameras produced in and around Dresden before WWII. Most of the literature on those cameras and their lenses is only available in German which makes research difficult for those who cannot read that language.

William 

[nykv]

11 hours ago, willeica said:

...Most of the literature on those cameras and their lenses is only available in German which makes research difficult for those who cannot read that language.

William 

Perfect motivation to brush up your German  (reading, come on...).

Edited May 27 by nykv

[wlaidlaw]

29 minutes ago, nykv said:

Perfect motivation to brush up your German  (reading, come on...).

At my advanced age my German capabilities have gone into reverse. I can still manage menus, taxis, trains, booking counters and hotel check-ins but that is about it. The problem is I have never lived in a German speaking country which if you want to be fluent, is essential. I lived for a year in the French speaking part of Switzerland, so my French comes fairly naturally to me, other than my cleaning lady, Antoinette, in France, whose guttural Provençal accent and odd syntax, makes her French near impenetrable. 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[zeitz]

1 hour ago, nykv said:

Perfect motivation to brush up your German  (reading, come on...).

A scanner, PDFgear with its excellent OCR, and Google Translate work well for me.  I could try to translate it myself, but I would soon wear out a German to English dictionary.