If You Were Me: The 50mm Dilemma.

[pgk]

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41 minutes ago, Brancbūth said:

I would previously have purchased the pre-ASPH ‘Lux in a heartbeat, but after reading through countless threads, I noticed numerous people describing “unbearable” barrel distortion. Normally these characteristics would not put me off, but a few users described the lens as “unusable.” What has your experience been?

I've had this lens and changed it for the aspheric version simply because of wide-open performance. Can't say that barrel distortion was a problem at all (and if you shoot digital its a non-issue).

[evikne]

51 minutes ago, Brancbūth said:

I would previously have purchased the pre-ASPH ‘Lux in a heartbeat, but after reading through countless threads, I noticed numerous people describing “unbearable” barrel distortion. Normally these characteristics would not put me off, but a few users described the lens as “unusable.” What has your experience been?

I have actually never heard of it and never noticed it. And I have been using it extensively for the last two years. 

[analog-digital]

Make no drama with the 40mm or 50mm lenses. If you have a 40mm lens on the M3, just imagine the difference. You have a lot of space next to the frame.

 

Another good lens: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 1.4/40mm

[Brancbūth]

33 minutes ago, analog-digital said:

Make no drama with the 40mm or 50mm lenses. If you have a 40mm lens on the M3, just imagine the difference. You have a lot of space next to the frame.

 

Another good lens: Voigtländer Nokton Classic 1.4/40mm

Setting aside the framing concerns, have you experienced any focusing inconsistencies with the 40mm 'Cron? Leica stated, themselves, that due to the "steep cam" focusing system, the 40mm 'Cron may not be compatible with M cameras. Additionally, I have heard numerous parallax-related concerns. The only reason I scrutinize so heavily is because I have been intrigued by this lens for a long while. If there are no "drawbacks" aside from the 40mm vs 50mm focal length, then it is indeed the lens for me. 

[oldwino]

I found the Summarit 50 2.4 to have a nice blend of modern and classic - it matched very well with my summaron 35/2.8. 
The Elmar-M was too contrasty for me. Very sharp, though. 
Version 2 Summilux does have barrel distortion, but rarely bothers in normal use. Some people are very sensitive to barrel distortion, and if you go looking for it, sometimes it’s all you see.
The version 1 is practically distortion free,  but it needs to be stopped down to ~f4 to get rid of the “glow”. 

The new voigtlander 50/1.5 seems to have a nice blend of modern optics, but classical rendering. 

[Brancbūth]

2 minutes ago, oldwino said:

I found the Summarit 50 2.4 to have a nice blend of modern and classic - it matched very well with my summaron 35/2.8. 
The Elmar-M was too contrasty for me. Very sharp, though. 
Version 2 Summilux does have barrel distortion, but rarely bothers in normal use. Some people are very sensitive to barrel distortion, and if you go looking for it, sometimes it’s all you see.
The version 1 is practically distortion free,  but it needs to be stopped down to ~f4 to get rid of the “glow”. 

The new voigtlander 50/1.5 seems to have a nice blend of modern optics, but classical rendering. 

This may be a non-issue, and it has more to do with the longevity of the lens - so forgive my scrutiny - but I read (probably in the "Summarits- A Case Study" thread) That internally, the Summarit utilizes both brass and aluminum, and that this combination raises the concern of internal corrosion. Is there any merit to this?

[pedaes]

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3 minutes ago, Brancbūth said:

Summarit utilizes both brass and aluminum

As do all but the all brass lenses. 

[oldwino]

6 minutes ago, Brancbūth said:

This may be a non-issue, and it has more to do with the longevity of the lens - so forgive my scrutiny - but I read (probably in the "Summarits- A Case Study" thread) That internally, the Summarit utilizes both brass and aluminum, and that this combination raises the concern of internal corrosion. Is there any merit to this?

Who knows? But I would think that Leica knows what they are doing, material-wise. They are not new at this lens game. 
An ultimate might be a re-issue of the V2 rigid, with the same build quality, but with modern lenses with modern coatings. But what would that cost? $6-7K each? 

[a.noctilux]

Metal in lens construction varied over time.

more on lens construction

This trio would be my dream team 😄

 

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but in

real life,

I use this trio happily

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by a.noctilux

[spydrxx]

This topic IMHO has been beaten to death over the years, but is always open to fresh observations. I offer my opinion, having owned many Leica and 3rd party 50mm lenses over 50 years of shooting, film and digital. Simply, you can't go wrong with any Leica offerings, as long as the ergonomics of a particular lens work for you. Several years ago I sold my 50 crons, luxes and noctis in favor of the OLD 50 elmar 3.5 red scale, and also kept a few CV, old Canon, and Nicor LTM lenses which work fine on my M2 with an adapter ring. To me, there is a fundamental decision in selection, besides ergonomics, which is whether you prefer a more classic rendering or modern rendering...and that should guide your selection of lenses. I do believe you're overthinking the issues given the nature of what you are shooting...but to each his own. Why not just go for a crapshoot and let your wife pick out a 50 for you as an early Christmas present...that way you'll definitely appreciate it.

[Brancbūth]

8 minutes ago, oldwino said:

Who knows? But I would think that Leica knows what they are doing, material-wise. They are not new at this lens game. 
An ultimate might be a re-issue of the V2 rigid, with the same build quality, but with modern lenses with modern coatings. But what would that cost? $6-7K each? 

 

13 minutes ago, pedaes said:

As do all but the all brass lenses. 

Fair enough. @oldwino, of course Leica must know what they're doing, but I've also seen the utilization of rubber pieces in the (I believe) 35mm and 75mm Summarit heavily criticized, so surely they can't be infallible. I have only seen this (brass + aluminum combo) mentioned once, but it was enough of a theoretical concern for me to mention it here. I know nothing about lens construction.

[Herr Barnack]

12 hours ago, Brancbūth said:

Hello all,

As mentioned in my recent thread ("Possible Fungus in V5 Summicron", in which the issue turned out to be arguably worse that I feared), I have some spare time to decide on a lens choice while awaiting a refund for the aforementioned "not as described" 50mm v5 Summicron. 

A bit of background: I shoot an M3, and have been using a 28mm f/5.6 Summaron exclusively for about a year (simply because it is the only lens that I own). I have used a combination of shoe-mounted viewfinder and a crude rule-of-thirds trick with the 90mm frame lines. Although I love the 28mm focal length, it creates a bit of a issue in that:

(a.) I'm extremely non-confrontational. I shoot primarily candid shots in the street - almost no landscape whatsoever - and occasionally my wife and dogs. Obviously, 28mm requires you to move in close, and simply put: I'm not comfortable enough to get the shots I want. Pair this with the prohibitive dangers of COVID-time street shooting, and I'm left with a lens that is far from conducive to comfort. I will keep it but, as my only lens, it hasn't been ideal.

(b.) I want to use those 50mm frame lines. I chose the M3 specifically for its magnification, and I'm not getting that benefit using an external finder.

 

I shoot black and white almost exclusively (Tri-X, Ferrania P30, and 5222). I do not necessarily want a lens that is going to exaggerate the higher contrast of the latter two films; additionally, I am not after a lens that exhibits clinical sharpness. I had decided on the v5 Summicron, because I wanted an optically "dated" lens with the reliability afforded by modern coatings and optical cements, i.e. I want something with reliability and character. I was initially between the v4 and v5 Summicron, but decided on the latter, and the prices have become comparable, and I had heard about some issues with plastic parts inside the v4. The final concern is compactness. Simply, I want as compact a 50mm as I can find, with a maximum aperture of at least f/2.

 

Wrapping this up, I am now second-guessing my decision in the v5 'Cron and wondering if there isn't a better option that fits my criteria. I am open to Voigtlander and Zeiss, but I have found them to be less compact than I'd prefer. I know this is a lengthy post, so apologies for that. Any advice is appreciated.

@Brancbūth - Considering all the above variables that you mention, I think the solution to your dilemma is simple:  Get a 50mm lens.  Either the 50/2 Summicron, 50/1.4 Summilux ASPH or the 50/2 Summicron APO, depending on your budget and personal preferences.

Regarding the 50/1.4 and its allegedly "unbearable barrel distortion," that's news to me.  I had a 50/1.4 Summilux millennium and noticed no such "unbearable barrel distortion."  In upgrading to the current version - the 50/1.4 Summilux ASPH, I have an extremely hard time believing that Leica actually made barrel distortion worse than in its predecessor.

Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be -  just get yourself a 50/2 Summicron, 50/1.4 Summilux ASPH or the 50/2 Summicron APO and be happy.  Whichever lens you decide on, you will have a lens for life and a world class optic.

[Mr.Prime]

It seems to me despite my v limited experience compared with all the posters so far...

after all is said and done, the summicron fits your needs well. Just get a good copy and don’t look back.

[oldwino]

6 minutes ago, Brancbūth said:

 

Fair enough. @oldwino, of course Leica must know what they're doing, but I've also seen the utilization of rubber pieces in the (I believe) 35mm and 75mm Summarit heavily criticized, so surely they can't be infallible. I have only seen this (brass + aluminum combo) mentioned once, but it was enough of a theoretical concern for me to mention it here. I know nothing about lens construction.

It was the 75 & 90 Summarits with the rubber focus grips. Poor design choice, I’d agree. 
But, there is no perfect lens, even from Leica, so we are stuck with weighing our options, and trying to pick lenses with the most tolerable “faults”. 
Good luck with your search. As a few here have said, it’s hard to go too far wrong with a Leica 50. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by oldwino
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[Brancbūth]

25 minutes ago, spydrxx said:

I do believe you're overthinking the issues given the nature of what you are shooting...but to each his own. Why not just go for a crapshoot and let your wife pick out a 50 for you as an early Christmas present...that way you'll definitely appreciate it.

 

 😅 I think you're absolutely right, but it is in my nature. Nevertheless, your advice is valued. My reservations stem from the fact that I've become cripplingly minimalist in last few years. I will only buy one lens, so my goal is to find one as well-rounded (for my purposes) as can be attained. I do agree that this topic has been discussed to death, so I apologize for adding to the pile. I know that I will likely not find a "perfect lens," but the notion of of buying and re-selling a lens if I find that it does not fit my preferences seems as exhausting as reading my posts. I also recognize that the only way I can come to a definitive decision is through my own experience, but the experiences of the users on this forum are very helpful.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Brancbūth
a word.

[analog-digital]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Brancbūth:

Setting aside the framing concerns, have you experienced any focusing inconsistencies with the 40mm 'Cron? Leica stated, themselves, that due to the "steep cam" focusing system, the 40mm 'Cron may not be compatible with M cameras. Additionally, I have heard numerous parallax-related concerns. The only reason I scrutinize so heavily is because I have been intrigued by this lens for a long while. If there are no "drawbacks" aside from the 40mm vs 50mm focal length, then it is indeed the lens for me. 

NO.

Buy and try. In the worst case, buy a Minolta CLE or a Leica CL as well. You can still sell.

[Stephen.s1]

I have an APO-lanthar coming..it weighs just under one ounce more than my f/2 Summicron.. and very close size-wise.

Stand by for a report..

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Stephen.s1
typo

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, Brancbūth said:

I've also seen

Let's be clear, the rubberised grip you are talking about was a conscious design feature which some like, some don't. If you feel the manufacture of Leica lenses isn't up to your standard the answer is obvious.

Edited January 17, 2021 by pedaes

[Guest Nowhereman]

4 hours ago, Brancbūth said:

...I would previously have purchased the pre-ASPH ‘Lux in a heartbeat, but after reading through countless threads, I noticed numerous people describing “unbearable” barrel distortion. Normally these characteristics would not put me off, but a few users described the lens as “unusable.” What has your experience been?

Never noticed any barrel distortion with the Summilux 50 pre-ASPH, even if shooting a brick wall may show more of it that with the ASPH. Actually, when the ASPH was introduced in 2004, a friend and I picked up the last two new copies of the pre-ASPH in Bangkok for $1,350 because we both preferred its rendition; especially it's bokeh at f/1.4 and how it treats highlights, of which the following image is an example, shot with Tri-X:

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 It occurred to me that the earlier image that I posted above taken with the DR Summicron using its close-up range didn't show the excellent resolution of this lens — though the 150 x 100 cm (60 x 40 inch) print I made of that image looks good. There is an LHSA article that was, but no longer is, online by Seth Rosner in which he compares the DR Summicron to the subsequent Type 3 and Type 4 Summicron 50 lenses, and explains why he prefers its rendering. He concludes that, while the later lenses have slightly higher resolution at f/2, at medium apertures the DR (as well as the Rigid) was, optically, better overall,  "with better definition and nearly comparable contrast". I had a Type 4 and prefer the DR. The following was taken using the close-up range.

M10 | DR Summicron with goggles | ISO 6400 | f/4 | 1/60 sec - handheld________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

Edited January 17, 2021 by Nowhereman

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[BradS]

Life is way too short to obsess about such minutia.  Get a Planar, Summarit, Summicron or Summilux and make photos. It doesn't matter which version, as long as it's in good condition. These are all excellent performers. Choose the one that fits your budget...and use it!

Edited January 17, 2021 by BradS