Small differences between M lenses pale in M vs S comparisons

[adan]

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On 1/8/2021 at 9:41 PM, setuporg said:

This forum has an infinite series of comparisons between various M lenses.  E.g. now folks clamor for a 1.2 Noctilux, going back in time from 0.95 to 1.0 to 1.2.

However, when I got the S system with all of its 10 lenses, I saw that each and every single one of them is a Noctilux or APO.  They all achieve am amazing subject separation with a variety of apertures, due to the MF look.  Of course the S sensors help.

Thus, all the nitpicking and handwringing, trying to choose between two lenses, become infinitely less important than choosing between an M or S.

 

On 1/9/2021 at 9:58 AM, giannis said:

It's always funny seeing people obsess over which lens is a tiny bit sharper than the rest for an extra $1,000,

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

Which explains a whole of things about both LeicaForumKultur, and many other things in the world. 7.6 billion people who, to an outside observer, are as objectively indistinguishable as the members of a herd of lemmings. (Note: there is a more specific collective noun for lemmings, but it would lead into politics ).

And is presaged by Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels, in which Lemuel Gulliver finds the Lilliputians driven nearly to war over which end of an egg should be cracked first.

It is a psychological quirk of humanity beloved by marketers - "the unique selling proposition." The need to differentiate the "me" by any means, no matter how trivial.

[setuporg]

I can clarify the point in a simple proposition:

For the cost of an LHSA APO 50 or a Noctilux, 12-15K, you can get a used S camera and a lens or two, e.g. S100 or S120.

What could change your view of photography in more dramatic ways?

[LocalHero1953]

20 minutes ago, setuporg said:

I can clarify the point in a simple proposition:

For the cost of an LHSA APO 50 or a Noctilux, 12-15K, you can get a used S camera and a lens or two, e.g. S100 or S120.

What could change your view of photography in more dramatic ways?

None of them - I'd find a cheaper way to change my photography, most of them involving me and my skills. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[giannis]

45 minutes ago, adan said:

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

 

46 minutes ago, adan said:

It is a psychological quirk of humanity beloved by marketers - "the unique selling proposition." The need to differentiate the "me" by any means, no matter how trivial.

Couldn't have said it better, you hit the nail on the head.

[giannis]

58 minutes ago, setuporg said:

What could change your view of photography in more dramatic ways?

I have a better one: For $300 you can get 3 flashes and modifiers (softbox, grid, snout, umbrella), along with stands and a set of gels, and create amazing atmosphere that will have a much more dramatic effect on your photos than any lens or camera. For $300 you can hire a model and studio for a couple hours, and that will improve your skills (photography+directing) and output much more than any gear. Same for $50 and a couple special effects filters (softeners, prisms/kaleidoscopes, split diopters, fog, etc.). Or you can experiment with practical effects for free. Like hairspray on a UV filter, or vaseline, or holding refractive objects in front of your lens (prisms, crystals, glasses, wrinkled cling film, etc.) to create dreamy flares and softness. 

The possibilities are endless, if you keep an open and creative mind. Gear purchase to "elevate" photography, in the vast majority of cases, is the easiest, laziest thing to do, and despite being the priciest option, it has the least effect on your photos.

I'll leave this here, as an example of masterful work with practical effects making all arguing over gear quite moot:

Bruno Aveillan for Louis Vuitton

You can google the guy to see more examples of his still photography.

Edited January 10, 2021 by giannis
typos

[luigi bertolotti]

1 hour ago, setuporg said:

I can clarify the point in a simple proposition:

For the cost of an LHSA APO 50 or a Noctilux, 12-15K, you can get a used S camera and a lens or two, e.g. S100 or S120.

What could change your view of photography in more dramatic ways?

This is a good point : it's all about what one means for "photography" : for me is "taking a camera anytime I like, so that I'm comfortable to carry it, and its accessories, whithout problems of how to carry and manage it" . i have decided many years ago  that a Leica small format fits good for... so for continuous satisfaction with the system, went on this way, even when, for specific reasons, i decide to carry with me some item of abnormal size (for instance, a long tele... I have no doubt that some APS with a good zoom  would serve me better, in this context... and think time to time to CL..).

Should my mood be different, like "i want to go out with a camera that can take the best pictures i can take, regardless of issues of size / weight / manageability" I probably had continued, starting many years ago, to follow the MF route (which I started with TLR Rollei, then abandoned) and now, if not of Leica S (which COSTS a lot) , maybe I could be a happy user of some Fuji MF digital...

There must be a reason for MF still has a market today... 😉 ... and so good for Leica if they make a good one, with excellent optics... I admit that time to time (always coming back to my experience with Rolleiflex, and also with Linhof 70...) I think "well, suppose I SELL all my M gear... what could i buy with ? A used S with 2-3 lenses ? A X1D ? A GX50R ?..."  but always don't switch... so, as many others, still go on to look at the lenses, the accesories, the comparisions ecc... within my horizon as a "no MF user"... 

Edited January 10, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[frame-it]

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7 hours ago, giannis said:

Bruno Aveillan for Louis Vuitton

You can google the guy to see more examples of his still photography.

his work is always amazing, i know people who have worked with him in Paris, he Does Love Computer Graphics to enhance things, but mostly gets it all in camera

https://prod.quad.fr/directors/bruno-aveillan

[frame-it]

8 hours ago, setuporg said:

What could change your view of photography in more dramatic ways?

😇

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Herr Barnack]

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The problem with the S is its weight and size.

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Er....and cost?

Fact check:  M cameras and lenses are very costly, out of reach for the majority of photographers and barely within reach for many more.  S cameras and lenses are just plain old hideously costly - we're talking seizure inducing costly - even compared to M cameras and lenses.

The S system may produce better printed image quality than the M system, but at a huge penalty in terms of weight, size and cost.  Other than for fine art print making, photographing for billboard size advertising images or photographing the weddings of very wealthy clients who are willing to cough up $30,000 USD or more for a wedding shoot, I can't really see the point of investing in the S system. 

The sacrifices that the S system requires compared to the M system may be worth the compulsory bloodletting and effort for some photographers.  For me, it's not. 

Quote

S, R whatever. To me Leica is with M.

Same here.  I am quite content with my "inferior" (😄) M cameras and lenses and the "small" (😄) sensors that come with them.

JMHO/YMMV/IANAL/EIEIO.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Anbaric]

22 hours ago, setuporg said:

Thanks for all the comments.  The point was me struggling with the question "if you keep only one system, what should it be."  I find that it's impossible to achieve the look of S with anything that M has.  And getting a variety of M lenses will not achieve the diversity that a single S lens adds.  Of all the replies @giannis got it exactly right.  The reality of travel is that M works much better.  But if the goal is not collecting but realizing all kinds of looks, getting an MF lens surely beats a new M lens in terms of difference/cost ratio.

I think it might be quite difficult to get the Tri-X look with an S.

[adan]

Since someone introduced the concept of the narcissism of small differences (oh, that's right - it was me!)....

In the big scheme of things - there is not that much difference between the S format and the Barnack format.

The S sensor is barely larger than the Kodak 828 film format (which was 28 x 40 images on paper-backed 35mm film, with smaller sprocket holes on one side only). It is dwarfed by most medium-format film formats.

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828 film was used in, among others, Kodak Bantam cameras (Bantam being a word for undersized things (chickens, boxers, young hockey players, paperback books, cars, etc.). )

https://vintagecameralab.com/kodak-flash-bantam/

 

[alan.y]

The S is heavy and bulky but not really expensive by Leica standards if bought used. In many cases the S line is actually dirt cheap (again by Leica standards). Just don't buy the S3 body new.

Edited January 17, 2021 by alan.y