Year 2021 (and later) predictions

[mike3996]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Sorry, can't help but add to the wishlist  threads

 

Leica M-EVF is not going to happen. The reason is that no  M lens supports automatic aperture opening for focusing and then closing it for taking. It's a juggle that will feel awkward enough to scare the majority of people off of the concept.

Leica mini-SL just might happen. Approximately M sized*, with an EVF on the left. But it will feature an L mount instead of M. The same reason as for M-EVF not happening. They have to put electronic lens mount as the supported one and the adapted lenses, while they work perfectly, can be second-citizens in the sense of customer support.

Leica M11... my crystal ball is foggy on this one, hard to say anything definite about the upcoming M11. Leica evolved the M10 throughout two major improvements, first in M10P and then M10R. I think it is clear by now that they will roll out a new number only when they revisit the body design. I have to wonder what they can possibly put in M11 to reasonably sell the camera over M10R. My personal wish is they focused on improving the (still optional) EVF resolution and view delay. Battery is an easy secondary target that they can only improve upon body modifications. An IBIS on a rangefinder is a wonderful idea but I fear it's simply too wonderful to ever happen. Too much of a good thing, and all that.

Leica CL2... can wait, instead a TL3 with IBIS will come out. Still rocking that Visoflex 020. There will be no  new TL lenses announced.

 

M5-sized, I'm afraid.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[astrostl]

6 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

Leica M-EVF is not going to happen. The reason is that no  M lens supports automatic aperture opening for focusing and then closing it for taking. It's a juggle that will feel awkward enough to scare the majority of people off of the concept.

This doesn't make sense to me as an argument. I can and do adapt M lenses to other bodies and use their EVF perfectly well.

[LBJ2]

2 hours ago, astrostl said:

This doesn't make sense to me as an argument. I can and do adapt M lenses to other bodies and use their EVF perfectly well.

Just curious, do you get EXIF data and in-camera lens correction when adapting M lenses to Leica SL cameras? Also are you able to use SLx camera IBIS with M Lenses. If so, is there some way to select lens FL in the SL IBIS menu to accommodate for adapting M lenses? 

Edited December 29, 2020 by LBJ2

[astrostl]

I don't know. I adapt to MFT and Hasselblad V.

[LBJ2]

2 hours ago, mike3996 said:

Sorry, can't help but add to the wishlist  threads

 

Leica M-EVF is not going to happen. The reason is that no  M lens supports automatic aperture opening for focusing and then closing it for taking. It's a juggle that will feel awkward enough to scare the majority of people off of the concept.

Leica mini-SL just might happen. Approximately M sized*, with an EVF on the left. But it will feature an L mount instead of M. The same reason as for M-EVF not happening. They have to put electronic lens mount as the supported one and the adapted lenses, while they work perfectly, can be second-citizens in the sense of customer support.

Leica M11... my crystal ball is foggy on this one, hard to say anything definite about the upcoming M11. Leica evolved the M10 throughout two major improvements, first in M10P and then M10R. I think it is clear by now that they will roll out a new number only when they revisit the body design. I have to wonder what they can possibly put in M11 to reasonably sell the camera over M10R. My personal wish is they focused on improving the (still optional) EVF resolution and view delay. Battery is an easy secondary target that they can only improve upon body modifications. An IBIS on a rangefinder is a wonderful idea but I fear it's simply too wonderful to ever happen. Too much of a good thing, and all that.

Leica CL2... can wait, instead a TL3 with IBIS will come out. Still rocking that Visoflex 020. There will be no  new TL lenses announced.

 

M5-sized, I'm afraid.

Some interesting thoughts/predictions!

Quick win and wondering why it hasn't come yet 🤨 I think an updated Visoflex with more MPs aka much better IQ would go a long way to satisfying some M users that want/need an EVF but still love their M- Rangefinder cameras/system. 

[jaapv]

43 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Just curious, do you get EXIF data and in-camera lens correction when adapting M lenses to Leica SL cameras? Also are you able to use SLx camera IBIS with M Lenses. If so, is there some way to select lens FL in the SL IBIS menu to accommodate for adapting M lenses? 

Yes to EXIF (except aperture) and lens correction - the adapter has a 6-bit reader. In IBIS I don't know, but the lenses can be entered manually.

However, there is another argument against an EVF M camera - the market is too small. As the camera would have to be an entirely new development (as opposed to Monochroms, MD cameras etc.) the R&D would impact the price immensely, limiting the customer base even more. It may be attractive to (ageing) M users who already own a cupboard full of M lenses, but nobody outside the Leica family is going to buy a functionally impaired EVF camera when a body+lens will be in the 15.000 Euro range. An ML-EVF would be be more attractive - at least it could offer full functionality, and would not entail more than shrinking the SL series and rebodying it.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

52 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Just curious, do you get EXIF data and in-camera lens correction when adapting M lenses to Leica SL cameras? Also are you able to use SLx camera IBIS with M Lenses. If so, is there some way to select lens FL in the SL IBIS menu to accommodate for adapting M lenses? 

Yes. All three. IBIS length is selected automatically based on the 6 bit code.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes to EXIF (except aperture) and lens correction - the adapter has a 6-bit reader. In IBIS I don't know, but the lenses can be entered manually.

However, there is another argument against an EVF M camera - the market is too small. As the camera would have to be an entirely new development (as opposed to Monochroms, MD cameras etc.) the R&D would impact the price immensely, limiting the customer base even more. It may be attractive to (ageing) M users who already own a cupboard full of M lenses, but nobody outside the Leica family is going to buy a functionally impaired EVF camera when a body+lens will be in the 15.000 Euro range. An ML-EVF would be be more attractive - at least it could offer full functionality, and would not entail more than shrinking the SL series and rebodying it.

I would suggest that the market is much larger than a monochrom camera. Plus the tech is mostly already there. It's an SL and CL baby.

The real issue will be battery consumption/heat. To get a battery big enough they'll need at least a type 240 body size. Bigger with IBIS. Heat will be an issue because it'll shoot video (may as well with an EVF). I just think the body size will approach the Sony A7C and Leica M shooters won't buy a camera that big. May as well get an SL.

Gordon

[Dennis]

IBIS, EVF, and other changes doesn't make sense for me on an M camera. Because it's essence. But I do would love to see an M color camera, with the same or better low-light performance at high iso of the M10M ... A new M11, with two full stops advantages over M10... It sounds like heaven to me. Here it's the real deal. At least for me. I want to be able to shoot at 1/250 minimum SS whenever I want.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Dennis

[LBJ2]

24 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes to EXIF (except aperture) and lens correction - the adapter has a 6-bit reader. In IBIS I don't know, but the lenses can be entered manually.

However, there is another argument against an EVF M camera - the market is too small. As the camera would have to be an entirely new development (as opposed to Monochroms, MD cameras etc.) the R&D would impact the price immensely, limiting the customer base even more. It may be attractive to (ageing) M users who already own a cupboard full of M lenses, but nobody outside the Leica family is going to buy a functionally impaired EVF camera when a body+lens will be in the 15.000 Euro range. An ML-EVF would be be more attractive - at least it could offer full functionality, and would not entail more than shrinking the SL series and rebodying it.

Some good points worth considering. We know from recent interviews with Leica, the M EVF request has been heard all the way to the top. But like you wrote the challenges may out-way the ROI. 

[LBJ2]

16 minutes ago, Dennis said:

IBIS, EVF, and other changes doesn't make sense for me on an M camera. Because it's essence. But I do would love to see an M color camera, with the same or better low-light performance at high iso of the M10M ... A new M11, with two full stops advantages over M10... It sounds like heaven to me. Here it's the real deal. At least for me. I want to be able to shoot at 1/250 minimum SS whenever I want.

I’d love to ditch the ND filters too ! 1/8000 or faster please 😉 

[PATB]

Why is an IBIS detracting from the essence of an M camera? 

I have been using an MP since around 2007 (mainly BW film) and thinking of getting an M10R, now that darkrooms in my area are probably going to be permanently closed even after the pandemic.  The only thing giving me pause is whether I can properly hand hold a 47M camera.

[Dennis]

6 minutes ago, PATB said:

Why is an IBIS detracting from the essence of an M camera? 

Of course, it doesn't, but it does for me 😬 I really like the idea (and the whole process) to take photos with digital like it were film.
I walk in the street, I say something that attracts my attention, I decide manually my exposure, where to focus, my composition, and that's it! On my M10, I don't need anything more. That's why I like it very much. No tilting display, no EVF, no IBIS. Like the Leica grandmasters of the Universe, lol... Did HCB need an IBIS? No, thank god.
If you limit yourself to use ONLY a very few elements at your disposal and any extra tricks... You gonna be better in the long term.
Stupid sample. Imagine just a guy running marathons, for a while, with some extra weight on his body. When it doesn't have anymore, he can run the same marathons, but probably better or faster.

That's my point. The M essence is minimalism with efficiency at its best. IBIS can help, I understand. But I don't want help. It's beautiful and rewarding to shoot w/o.
Let's keep the M pure ... That's my thought and prediction for 2021

[Guest]

Just hope the company survives these difficult times as they at least still make a unique and beautiful camera.

[astrostl]

IBIS can be disabled...

[Dennis]

2 minutes ago, astrostl said:

IBIS can be disabled...

Yes. But instead of putting more advanced technology on an M in exchange at the expense of size, why just don't keep everything like now? I mean, updating the sensor and the processor only.
If Leica achieves, put an IBIS in a future M camera w/o increasing size and weight, BRAVO! Then I agree with you that you can disable it. But they have to make a lot of design changes inside the already perfect Leica size cameras, and for that, I could guess they need more space.

[LBJ2]

Sometimes I wonder if the Leica M people that say they really want IBIS have ever actually used IBIS before? 

A few years back people used to complain IBIS was a bell or whistle or both for still photography. Now when high ISO technology is so much better than ever and noise clean up is incredible easy and efficient, seems IBIS is the latest greatest must have. I’ve had IBIS in my high MP cameras for years and frankly, I rarely if ever use IBIS except for one problematic supertelephoto zoom. 

[astrostl]

26 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Yes. But instead of putting more advanced technology on an M in exchange at the expense of size, why just don't keep everything like now? I mean, updating the sensor and the processor only.
If Leica achieves, put an IBIS in a future M camera w/o increasing size and weight, BRAVO! Then I agree with you that you can disable it. But they have to make a lot of design changes inside the already perfect Leica size cameras, and for that, I could guess they need more space.

Right now, everything is like right now. So maybe be happy that you apparently already have your perfect camera, and let others have theirs too?

My primary interest in IBIS isn't actually for IBIS (although I like having the option) - it's high-speed sensor vibration on startup/shutdown to automatically dislodge sensor dust.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mmradman]

All major cameras use IBIS today, going forward for any top model aspiring to appeal to wider user base IBIS will be must have item, and yes I have been using it for the last two years, most recently last night with 21 and 28mm Summilux M lenses at max aperture attached to Nikon Z7.

As Leica M cameras have entered into the megapixel race as demonstrated with M10R and M10M models need for accurate focusing is rapidly exceeding Optical RF capabilities. And for every M camera user who claims that they can accurately focus with RF there must b3 at least ten others who are not that proficient.

[evikne]

It wouldn't surprise me if Leica comes up with something new that I didn't even know I wanted.

Think of M10-P's silent shutter, M10-D's advance-lever thumb rest, the Monochrom models …

No one foresaw things like that (but now I want them all). 😉

Edited December 29, 2020 by evikne