SL2-S vs. other cameras - image thread (24 megapixel BSI sensor with Leica lenses)

[Donzo98]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

36 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

The only explanation I can think of is that metadata in the DNG file prevents Lightroom from more shadow recovery.

Huge difference...

 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

You should try to use the same exposure, not same ISO when comparing.

This probably explains the visibly better noise in the SL2-S file. Will redo them. Thanks. 

[Chaemono]

As SrMi explained, same exposure is = identical shutter speed and aperture, not same ISO. As ISO settings increase, ISO 5000 on the S5 seems to be closer ISO 6400 on the SL2S with the same lens. Hence, it's only fair to compare the SL2S at that higher ISO value with what is to me the best FF low-light high ISO camera out there due to the S5's dual native ISO. I'll do ISO 640 later.

To my eyes, noise levels are almost identical with zero NR applied, maybe a slight edge for the S5 in these two here. While the SL2S picture is closer to the light source above, it still works for this illustration. Links to download the RAW files are included.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-VRrRQh/

S5 as shot RAW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g122314059-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=7XSFMehv3EQNgB6rBzbjFANqas1uyR-cLg-5kbkpC_I=

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 5000 f/4 @1/5000 sec.

SL2S as shot DNG here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g279498210-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=UOMRuhjMa8F1SFIGQo6uigIpQtufQtucRcKH0E2ZQrY=ISO 6400 f/4 @1/5000 sec.

[Chaemono]

Now with shadows lifted by 100 in LR, we have the same issue that the S1 displayed, green tint on the left side of the S5 picture and shadow artefacts in the dark area at 10.30, next to the sign with 8.

What I like about Leica is the attention to detail, including how they implement the sensor to ensure its highest possible performance. To quote Jaap from last year: "ADC, demosaicing, interpolation, etc [make a difference]. If the processor is working at the limit of its capabilities [which it is in the S5], any power fluctuation may introduce artefacts..." The SL2S simply does a lot better with its more powerful processor.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-VRrRQh/

S5 same as in #46 with shadows +100 in LR, zero NR

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

SL2S same as in #46 with shadows +100 in LR, zero NR

[Chaemono]

At ISO 640, the S5 is the king of FF cameras (>=24 MPx) when it comes to malleability of files. It's very difficult to push the ISO 640 S5 files hard enough in order to make them show white speckles, artifacts, or striping in the deep shadows. As ISO increases this advantage is eroded for the reasons shown in #47.

ISO 640 on the S5 is equal to ISO 640 +0.20 Exposure in LR on the SL2S. Noise level looks the same on both cameras, Id' say.

Less compressed JPEGs here:  https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-VRrRQh/

 

S5

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

SL2S 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

Now the processed files. I won't post links to download the RAWs because if one pushes the SL2S DNG hard enough, it won't be able to keep up with the S5. There will be some white speckles in the deep shadows as well as some striping. The S5 will be really clean. But in these here they are about equally good with NR of 15 applied to each.

Less compressed JPEGs here:  https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-VRrRQh/

S5 same as in the previous post processed with NR +15

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

SL2S same as in the previous post processed with NR +15

Edited December 22, 2020 by Chaemono

[Daedalus2000]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 12/22/2020 at 2:25 PM, Chaemono said:

Now the processed files. I won't post links to download the RAWs because if one pushes the SL2S DNG hard enough, it won't be able to keep up with the S5. There will be some white speckles in the deep shadows as well as some striping. The S5 will be really clean. But in these here they are about equally good with NR of 15 applied to each.

@Chaemono     Thanks for all your effort and comparisons. Can you please summarize what you think is your opinion between SL2-S and S5? I guess SL2-S is better for M lenses, also S5 is good for low light situations is one sticks at iso 640 and do some pushing later? But not if one uses high iso with the S5? Also in terms of AF are they similar etc? I would appreciate a quick summary if you have the time. All the best

 

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Daedalus2000:

@Chaemono     Thanks for all your effort and comparisons. Can you please summarize what you think is your opinion between SL2-S and S5? I guess SL2-S is better for M lenses, also S5 is good for low light situations is one sticks at iso 640 and do some pushing later? But not if one uses high iso with the S5? Also in terms of AF are they similar etc? I would appreciate a quick summary if you have the time. All the best

 

First, let me answer the question on the low-light ISO this way. ISO advantage of S5 at ISO 640 and greater is only there if files are pushed hard. However, in that case, files being pushed hard, the advantage tips towards the SL2S at ISO 3200 and higher for the reason mentioned in #47. You have the RAW files in #46 and can see for yourself. 

One could infer from the posts here and in the Other L-Mount products forum where I was gushing over the S5’s ISO 640 files, the point you seem to imply, stick to ISO 640 with the S5 in low-light and push the files later. In theory, yes, but in practice, it depends. The pictures in #48 are at 1/1000 sec. Is it better to shoot the S5 in a scene like that with ISO 640 and at 1/4000 sec. if required and push the files even more later? Possibly. It has to be tested, but someone else needs to do it. Given how good the SL2S’ high ISO performance is, these tests would be just a theoretical exercise for me and I don’t have a need to do them.

I much prefer the snappy shooting experience of the SL2S over what I perceive to be the not equally as fluid to operate S5. My two crateria for liking a camera and wanting to use it are files and fun to use. I’m not a pro. 

On AFc and tracking, how do the two compare? It’s been raining, except on one day, ever since I got the SL2S, we are in full lockdown, and I was recovering from side effects from a clinical trial. I haven’t compared the two. I’d refer you to this tester here for that: https://youtu.be/mz4Rod8C8JE. He seems to think they are comparable. On AFs, I use Pre Focus on the SLS2 and the camera focuses faster than I can frame. I absolutely love it.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Chaemono

[Daedalus2000]

1 minute ago, Chaemono said:

First, let me answer the question on the low-light ISO this way. ISO advantage of S5 at ISO 640 and greater is only there if files are pushed hard. However, in that case, files being pushed hard, the advantage tips towards the SL2S at ISO 3200 and greater for the reason mentioned in #47. You have the RAW files in #46 and can see for yourself. 

One could infer from the posts here and in the Other L-Mount products forum where I was gushing over the S5’s ISO 640 files, the point you seem to imply, stick to ISO 640 with the S5 in low-light and push the files later. In theory, yes, but in practice, it depends. The pictures in #48 are at 1/1000 sec. Is it better to shoot the S5 in a scene like that with ISO 640 and at 1/4000 sec. if required and push the files even more later? Possibly. It has to be tested, but someone else needs to do it. Given how good the SL2S’ high ISO performance is, these tests would be just a theoretical exercise for me and I don’t have a need to do them.

I much prefer the snappy shooting experience of the SL2S over what I perceive to be the not equally as fluid to operate S5. My two crateria for liking a camera and wanting to use it are files and fun to use. I’m not a pro. 

On AFc and tracking, how do the two compare? It’s been raining, except on one day, ever since I got the SL2S, we are in full lockdown, and I was recovering from side effects from a clinical trial. I haven’t compared the two. I’d refer you to this tester here for that: https://youtu.be/mz4Rod8C8JE. He seems to think they are comparable. On AFs, I use Pre Focus on the SLS2 and the camera focuses faster than I can frame. I absolutely love it.

 

 

Thank you very much for your reply, much appreciate it. I hope you get and feel better soon.  

 

[Donzo98]

2 hours ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Thank you very much for your reply, much appreciate it. I hope you get and feel better soon.  

 

I will kick in my 2 cents...

Comparing the S5 and SL2-S is really not comparing apples to apples.

Similar: Both have class leading high ISO performance. Both have good AF... but certainly not as good as the Sony. Both are 24 mp.

Dissimilar: S5 much smaller. S5 much cheaper. S5 EVF worse. Ergonomics better on 2S. Shooting experience, most would say 2S.

The closer comparison is between the the S1 and SL2-S... and I really think they are quite similar. I recently sold my SL-2 and got the SL2-S.

I always said the S1 was the best all around L mount body for both IQ and low light performance. It wasn't the best for M glass though. Now that the SL2-S is here... it is the best all around body for my use. I love how versatile is... and I really don't think I will miss the 47mp that the SL2 has.

[la1402]

I did some test shots against my Z6.  Z6 with 24-70 4.0 S. SL2S with Sigma 24-70 2.8. Both lenses Shot at f 5.6, manual exposure with same exposure times. Imported with Adobe Color Profile. Noise reduction and Sharpening in LR set to 0.

ISO 3200-6400-12800

In my view there is not much in it with maybe an advantage to the SLS2 at 12800. Which is good as the Z6 is a very good low light camera.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Daedalus2000]

3 hours ago, Donzo98 said:

I will kick in my 2 cents...

Comparing the S5 and SL2-S is really not comparing apples to apples.

Similar: Both have class leading high ISO performance. Both have good AF... but certainly not as good as the Sony. Both are 24 mp.

Dissimilar: S5 much smaller. S5 much cheaper. S5 EVF worse. Ergonomics better on 2S. Shooting experience, most would say 2S.

The closer comparison is between the the S1 and SL2-S... and I really think they are quite similar. I recently sold my SL-2 and got the SL2-S.

I always said the S1 was the best all around L mount body for both IQ and low light performance. It wasn't the best for M glass though. Now that the SL2-S is here... it is the best all around body for my use. I love how versatile is... and I really don't think I will miss the 47mp that the SL2 has.

Thank you for your input.

I was focused on the S5 because from my perspective the lower weight is a plus together with the high iso performance. Of course price is also a consideration, and in my case it is also a camera I have, so I am trying to understand what I will get extra if I also get the SL2-S.  I have used the S5 a few times and I am happy with its performance, I actually enjoy the color out of it as well.  Another point is that I have M and SL and S lenses. I am converging to the idea of selling my M bodies and accept that I find the rangefinder difficult and focus mostly on the SL line...

I need to add that if the SL2-S sensor readout is much faster, then that will be a big plus for me, because the S5 looks slow. That will mean that the SL2-S can be used for silent shooting which I use sometimes. I wonder if anyone can shoot a fan or something with electronic shutter to see any effects

Edited December 24, 2020 by Daedalus2000

[la1402]

Here examples of 6400 vs 3200 and 12800 vs 6400 (SLS2 vs Z6). There is still a significant difference to the Z6 at one ISO lower. So if there is overall advantage , it is small. Anyway, good performance.

Raw files can be downloaded here to play with

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsvTwjTJIhXbhIYDSeVHltJwSKtkGQ?e=LdoSsY

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 24, 2020 by la1402

[Chaemono]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Donzo98:

I recently sold my SL-2 and got the SL2-S.

Mine is gone, too.

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Donzo98:

Both have good AF... but certainly not as good as the Sony. Both are 24 mp.

Don't overestimate PDAF in low-light. α7 ΙΙΙ with the Planar FE 50/1.4 hunts. SL2-S with the 50 Summilux-SL focus is right there. I had stopped both lenses down. See my post in Jono's review for AA/OLP-filter, too.

[Chaemono]

The OLPF in the Z6 has a blurring effect when looking at 100% crops for high ISO noise. So it can't be compared with the SL2S. It's better to do high ISO noise comparisons among cameras when neither has an AA-/OLP-filter.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Chaemono

[la1402]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The OLPF in the Z6 has a blurring effect when looking at 100% crops for high ISO noise. So it can't be compared with the SL2S. It's better to do high ISO noise comparisons among cameras when neither has an AA-/OLP-filter.

Not that many current generation 24MP cameras w/o AA filter on the market, so that would rule out many comparisons. And of course it can be compared, as in the end the output matters. A test setup like dpreview would give you a view. (you see there that the S1 handily beats the Z6 in terms of resolution). Here, below an example when looking at the Simon&Schuster logo. If you factor in the slight difference in brightness and colours, the difference is very small at 100%. At normal viewing size it is invisible. We are splitting hairs here. At first glance, i am seeing nothing miracolous, but anyway the SL2S seems to be very very good and the performance is in line with the best 24MP Sensors in the market - like the S1.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Donzo98]

23 minutes ago, la1402 said:

Not that many current generation 24MP cameras w/o AA filter on the market, so that would rule out many comparisons. And of course it can be compared, as in the end the output matters. A test setup like dpreview would give you a view. (you see there that the S1 handily beats the Z6 in terms of resolution). Here, below an example when looking at the Simon&Schuster logo. If you factor in the slight difference in brightness and colours, the difference is very small at 100%. At normal viewing size it is invisible. We are splitting hairs here. At first glance, i am seeing nothing miracolous, but anyway the SL2S seems to be very very good and the performance is in line with the best 24MP Sensors in the market - like the S1.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Which is which in the pic above?? What ISO? Can you show the overall pic for scale??

[Chaemono]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb la1402:

Not that many current generation 24MP cameras w/o AA filter on the market, so that would rule out many comparisons. And of course it can be compared, as in the end the output matters. A test setup like dpreview would give you a view. (you see there that the S1 handily beats the Z6 in terms of resolution). Here, below an example when looking at the Simon&Schuster logo. If you factor in the slight difference in brightness and colours, the difference is very small at 100%. At normal viewing size it is invisible. We are splitting hairs here. At first glance, i am seeing nothing miracolous, but anyway the SL2S seems to be very very good and the performance is in line with the best 24MP Sensors in the market - like the S1.

The α7 III doesn’t have an AA filter. I’ll compare ISO noise later.

There is all kinds of in-camera RAW processing with the Z6, not just sharpening to make up for the OLPF blur. Nikon applies the Aptina trick at ISO 800 just like Sony for the α7 III at ISO 640. ISO 800 on the Z6 has less read noise than ISO 100. That kind of smoothing should be left to post-processing. The SL2-S doesn’t do that. In order compare noise levels one should, therefore, apply NR and sharpening to the SL2-S files. 

It’ll be interesting to see what the pushed shadow noise looks like at different ISOs on the Z6 vs. the SL2-S. I may do that.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[la1402]

14 minutes ago, Donzo98 said:

Which is which in the pic above?? What ISO? Can you show the overall pic for scale??

Have a guess 😀

ISO is 12800. Files are in the download link above.

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

Which is which in the pic above?? What ISO? Can you show the overall pic for scale??

There’s in camera RAW smoothing going on in the Z6. De facto it means one can apply the same smoothing and sharpening to the SL2-S in LR first and then compare. 

See here: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z6-z7-fwc-and-read-noise/

That is the result of the conversion gain (the ratio between the voltage on the pixel and the number of electrons stored there) changing.

Sony is using the same trick with α7 III at ISO 640. See here: 

https://blog.kasson.com/a7iii/sony-a7iii-raw-filtering/

The a7III appears, like many alpha cameras, to use the Aptina DR-Pix conversion gain algorithm, and to switch to high conversion gain at ISO 640. And indeed the ISO 640 plot does not look all that different from the ISO 100 one. The pattern starts to repeat as the ISO goes up.

If Sony is using these kinds of tricks to achieve their impressive noise numbers for the a7III, that would, I think, be a shame. This kind of thing is much better done in postproduction.