120mm APO Macro S lens on SL2 (and S lenses in general)

[ardbeg]

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I know this topic has been discussed previously but I’ll wade in none the less. I made the “mistake” of procuring a 120 APO-Macro Summarit-S for use on my SL2. It fullfilled several wants concurrently — 1) addressed a portion of a reach gap above 90mm and below 280mm previously occupied by a now sold 180 (non-APO) Elmarit-R, 2) updated to more “modern” rendering in the mid tele range, 3) offered weather sealing, and 4) provided for more seamless transitions between macro and non-macro work compared to using an M macro adapter and M adapter L with a 1970s-era 90mm Summicron M. The only other modern lens I own currenlty is the 50 Summilux-SL which I got because I heard (and now agree) it offered a nice balance between M Summilux “character” and SL Summicron optical perfection. That said, I now have a problem. I really like the S glass rendering much more (granted a sample size of one but the difference just jumps off the screen for me and I’ve used a fair number of lenses from various eras). While I used to shoot medium format film many years, I don’t think an S3 is in my future anytime soon (my aging eyesight likes EVFs and focus peaking) but I’m trying to resist the urge (and money outlay) to forgo future native SL lenses (the 28 Cron when it ships being a prime example) and just look at the S equivalents (despite the weight). Anyone else think that there is some aspect (perhaps tied to the lower element count, lack of opcode correction, ?) which gives the S lenses something beyond what the excellent SL lenses can provide? Or is the 120mm Macro just particularly noteworthy in the S line?

[ropo54]

Here's a link to the thread I had started on the S forum.  

I'm just a hobbyist so consider my thoughts from that perspective.  I've enjoyed all of the S lenses on the SL. The S120 is special, and is one of my favorites, but if you can accept the slower focus of the lenses, they are so well priced on the pre-owned market. 

(FWIW, the SL 50 1.4 is a favorite of mine as well)

[JeffWright]

1 hour ago, ardbeg said:

I know this topic has been discussed previously but I’ll wade in none the less. I made the “mistake” of procuring a 120 APO-Macro Summarit-S for use on my SL2. It fullfilled several wants concurrently — 1) addressed a portion of a reach gap above 90mm and below 280mm previously occupied by a now sold 180 (non-APO) Elmarit-R, 2) updated to more “modern” rendering in the mid tele range, 3) offered weather sealing, and 4) provided for more seamless transitions between macro and non-macro work compared to using an M macro adapter and M adapter L with a 1970s-era 90mm Summicron M. The only other modern lens I own currenlty is the 50 Summilux-SL which I got because I heard (and now agree) it offered a nice balance between M Summilux “character” and SL Summicron optical perfection. That said, I now have a problem. I really like the S glass rendering much more (granted a sample size of one but the difference just jumps off the screen for me and I’ve used a fair number of lenses from various eras). While I used to shoot medium format film many years, I don’t think an S3 is in my future anytime soon (my aging eyesight likes EVFs and focus peaking) but I’m trying to resist the urge (and money outlay) to forgo future native SL lenses (the 28 Cron when it ships being a prime example) and just look at the S equivalents (despite the weight). Anyone else think that there is some aspect (perhaps tied to the lower element count, lack of opcode correction, ?) which gives the S lenses something beyond what the excellent SL lenses can provide? Or is the 120mm Macro just particularly noteworthy in the S line?

If you're happy with the 120 Apo Macro S on the SL2, you'll be happy with the others for the most part. The 120 is the slowest focusing of all, which gives its use kind of a kludgy feel. I used the 35 S lens until I bought the 35 Summicron-SL. At one time I owned all the S lenses except the 30-90 zoom. I'm gradually divesting myself from the S system more because of a bad back than not loving the lenses. The only underperformer of the bunch is the 30-90 zoom, and my understanding that is highly sample dependent; I also can't comment on how well it works on the SL2, only the S.

[Jeff S]

The Leica Miami guys go into detail about using S lenses on the SL system in their ‘Camera Talk’ series on the Red Dot Forum YouTube channel.  This is a 20 part (and counting) series of interactive 2 hour discussions, now including coverage of the S and SL systems.  You might find some useful information/tips related to your findings and inquiry.  They specifically discuss the S120 as well as other options.

Jeff

[paulsydaus]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The Leica Miami guys go into detail about using S lenses on the SL system in their ‘Camera Talk’ series on the Red Dot Forum YouTube channel.  This is a 20 part (and counting) series of interactive 2 hour discussions, now including coverage of the S and SL systems.  You might find some useful information/tips related to your findings and inquiry.  They specifically discuss the S120 as well as other options.

Jeff

Hardly independent though are they...  I feel like you are going to get better advice from people who don’t have a financial interest here on this forum.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I use both S120 and S100 lenses with my SL2 and the Leica adapter.  AF is slow but accurate, and I found each of them at an attractive price, used;  Both very sharp and render colors well.  The 100 (which is careful not to throw APO labels around) has a bit of Mandler style in its rendering.  For wide angles, I can't see any advantage to S lenses over the growing SL Summicron line, which are affordably priced on the Leica scale.

[Jeff S]

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7 hours ago, paulsydaus said:

Hardly independent though are they...  I feel like you are going to get better advice from people who don’t have a financial interest here on this forum.

Of course, smart marketing. People should exercise good judgment and draw their own conclusions, just as they should from reading a bunch of hype here.  GAS doesn’t require much fuel.

Jeff
 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

My experience with Josh and David is that they are not desperate enough to promote something they don't actually like or think is a good fit for some customers. Obviously they not fully unbiased, but they are also Leica users themselves and unlikely to steer customers towards something that is wholly unsuited for their needs.

Regarding the S lenses on an SL2 body, I agree with Scott. I think the 70mm and up, and the 30-90 zoom are the most interesting S lenses for use on the Sl2. The 35mm and 45mm and even 24mm all do very well on the SL2 body, but they are very large and heavy in comparison to native versions and have slower, louder focusing, so unless you already have them or very much want their specific look, it is probably not the most practical choice.

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 10/24/2020 at 9:29 AM, paulsydaus said:

Hardly independent though are they...  I feel like you are going to get better advice from people who don’t have a financial interest here on this forum.

I think of them as cost-insensitive photo enthusiasts.  Genuine in their enthusiasms, but you have to look at what they (well, David shows a lot of his work) shoot and see it is what you would be doing, and correct a bit for their Leica-centralism.  But they can sell best what works best...

[ardbeg]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:43 AM, scott kirkpatrick said:

For wide angles, I can't see any advantage to S lenses over the growing SL Summicron line, which are affordably priced on the Leica scale.

While less critical for zone focusing, I do like the dual focus drive on the S lenses as opposed to the full focus by wire of the SL lenses. The focus by wire is my main (and really only) complaint with the SL Lux 50.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Here's an example of the look you can get with the S 100 as a medium distance portrait lens.  This is at f/4, but I would go to f/2 for a closer shot.

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U1040871 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

[Daniel81]

Bear in mind often for macro work, you are moving yourself or the camera/lens in and out to nail the shot rather than using the focus mechanism anyway.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Here's the 120 S Macro on a slightly hazy day.  I was intending to use multishot for even more resolution, but the cars move too fast...

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U1040909 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

Distance to the city entrance is about two miles  (3+ km).

Edited October 27, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[agencal]

20 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Here's the 120 S Macro on a slightly hazy day.  I was intending to use multishot for even more resolution, but the cars move too fast...

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U1040909 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

Distance to the city entrance is about two miles  (3+ km).

So what does this test photo says about sharpest S prime on SL2 ? 
If we think cost no object sould i go with 120mm and 180mm S lenses for my SL2 or better to go with 90-280mm? I am using 35mm and 75mm apos now and very happy with them.Sould we except better sharpness contrast with S lenses or is it a “look thing” ?

[ardbeg]

26 minutes ago, agencal said:

So what does this test photo says about sharpest S prime on SL2 ? 
If we think cost no object sould i go with 120mm and 180mm S lenses for my SL2 or better to go with 90-280mm? I am using 35mm and 75mm apos now and very happy with them.Sould we except better sharpness contrast with S lenses or is it a “look thing” ?

The 120 is sharp but I would say based on samples I’ve seen, the SL Crons are sharper. The positives of the 120 S are 1) it’s a weather sealed macro, 2) it’s a prime (I still prefer primes to zooms), 3) to me there is a “look” difference compared to the L lenses perhaps due to lower element count, and 4) having come to the SL2 after many years shooting M, I like the more direct focus of the S lenses rather than the focus by wire of the SL lenses. I watched the RedDotForum streams on the S and L systems and I agree with their assessment that manually focusing SL lenses is not as seamless as manually focusing S lenses.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Part of the SL APO design approach is using a common housing and focusing hardware and probably a consistent approach to developing and tuning the lens firmware.  There is no announced plan to push those lenses beyond 90 mm, so the S 100, 120 and 180 and the R's 180 APO Elmarit and 280/4.0 APO Telyt are the highest quality primes available at these longer focal lengths.   My 90-280 is in Wetzlar getting a tune-up so I can't compare them, but others have said that the primes still win on contrast.  As for sharpness, consider this shot from the same day 

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 and imagine what it feels like pushing through the thistles and bristles in shorts on a hot afternoon.  Both pictures are up on Flickr at 100%, but I think you need to download them to see the full resolution.

The previous shot covers about two miles on a slightly dusty, hazy day,.   I did some post-processing to help bring contrast and color back a bit,, but the resolution with which the distant buildings and the Calatrava "chord" bridge are rendered is not the best this lens can do. When I first got this lens, I shot with an SL out the window of my hotel in Tyson's Corner VA and later discovered an airliner clearly resolved on final approach to Dulles airport, more than 20 km away.

When David Farkas is enthusing about S lenses on an exotic landscape shoot, remember that he is using them on an S with an optical finder that is state of the art and exceeds the visibility that even the SL's finders can provide on a bright day.  I'm thinking that I should bring along a ground glass focusing cloth or at least a floppy hat  to get the details right out in the hills.

I posted the previous shot in another thread. but here's a fresh one.  You want sharp?  

 

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[agencal]

1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Part of the SL APO design approach is using a common housing and focusing hardware and probably a consistent approach to developing and tuning the lens firmware.  There is no announced plan to push those lenses beyond 90 mm, so the S 100, 120 and 180 and the R's 180 APO Elmarit and 280/4.0 APO Telyt are the highest quality primes available at these longer focal lengths.   My 90-280 is in Wetzlar getting a tune-up so I can't compare them, but others have said that the primes still win on contrast.  As for sharpness, consider this shot from the same day 

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 and imagine what it feels like pushing through the thistles and bristles in shorts on a hot afternoon.  Both pictures are up on Flickr at 100%, but I think you need to download them to see the full resolution.

The previous shot covers about two miles on a slightly dusty, hazy day,.   I did some post-processing to help bring contrast and color back a bit,, but the resolution with which the distant buildings and the Calatrava "chord" bridge are rendered is not the best this lens can do. When I first got this lens, I shot with an SL out the window of my hotel in Tyson's Corner VA and later discovered an airliner clearly resolved on final approach to Dulles airport, more than 20 km away.

When David Farkas is enthusing about S lenses on an exotic landscape shoot, remember that he is using them on an S with an optical finder that is state of the art and exceeds the visibility that even the SL's finders can provide on a bright day.  I'm thinking that I should bring along a ground glass focusing cloth or at least a floppy hat  to get the details right out in the hills.

I posted the previous shot in another thread. but here's a fresh one.  You want sharp?  

 

 

Kindly thanks for the explanation .So you have both 90-280mm and some S and R primes.Sould i go for S 120mm apo and r 280mm apo or 90-280mm? 

[scott kirkpatrick]

I have all of the primes I mentioned and the 90-280 because I was able to find the primes used at very attractive prices. And I got the two R lenses at a time when the SL was just a rumor.  If the primes are getting rare and expensive again, as many Leica customers, getting older, are offering to sell their prized 90-280s, you might find a good deal.  They are all fine lenses.  It's your call.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Just for comparison purposes, and because the picture came out better than the long shot of Jerusalem from the west posted above, this one is with the S 100/2.0 (probably at f/5.6):

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U1040944 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

air a bit less dusty, light angle and quality better, and a slightly higher vantage point.  The lens is every bit as sharp and contrasty as the 120 when stopped down like this.  The ruined houses of Liftah, scene of fighting in the Independence War of 1948, are visible in the valley between the railroad and the Romema district on the left  hilltop.

Edited October 31, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

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[scott kirkpatrick]

Some more with the S 100 Summicron, wandering in the seam between Israel (the Jerusalem suburb of Mevasseret) and a Palestinian village, Bait Iksa.  There is a memorial to the victims of the 9/11 attacks --

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U1040983 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

Vast expanses of eroded limestone rocks and sparse bristly trees

U1040964 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

The border or "green line" can only be seen as the boundary between patches of olive trees (Palestinian side) and Israeli reforestation with some sort of less scraggly pines, in orderly arrays

U1040956 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr