Leica M2 vs CL vs IIIf

[Rokkor]

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb andrew01:

The M2 has the M bayonet so you will need an adapter to use an older screw mount lens.

The question about the Leica experience being more about the camera bodies or the lenses is a valid question to ask.  I think the mechanical precision of the cameras is enough of a reason to buy a Leica M body even if you don't use the Leica lenses.  The lenses are beautifully made but in terms of the image quality I am not convinced there is a significant difference to justify the huge prices being asked now.  To experience Leica lenses I use the R system, where the lenses are 1/4 the price of the equivalent M lens.  

Yes, good point. And the screwmount lens could be a compromise.

[pippy]

1 minute ago, Rokkor said:

...I would almost be up for one but not easy to find a lot of M2s currently. If I could get hold of one for a decent price, I would be up for it. Seems a really cool camera...

Not wishing to make your task any more difficult, Rokkor, but if I factor in to the equation the amount I paid initially to buy the camera and also both the images I've been able to capture with it and the time-frame through which I've been able to use it - which is 40 years and counting - I'm in no doubt that the purchase price was niggardly in comparison to the benefits.

Philip.

[Rokkor]

Gerade eben schrieb pippy:

Not wishing to make your task any more difficult, Rokkor, but if I factor in to the equation the amount I paid initially to buy the camera and also both the images I've been able to capture with it and the time-frame through which I've been able to use it - which is 40 years and counting - I'm in no doubt that the purchase price was niggardly in comparison to the benefits.

Philip.

I am all in for that and think that is a good way looking at it - as a long term investment. 🙂

[hilm3]

I really like the M2, especially with a 35mm lens. With a 50mm lens, I even prefer the M2 to my M3 as I see the frame lines better with glasses on. I have an accurate MR-4 that I use to meter, but if traveling compact, a handheld meter or an iPhone app work really well. I use mostly a  Summaron 3.5cm 3.5 in screw mount with an LTM to M adapter on the M2. The camera hails from 1966, the lens from 1958, both in good mechanical and cosmetic condition. 

[Matlock]

9 hours ago, Rokkor said:

Ha- Even that fits from Voigtländer. How is the 7artisans lens with film M. Do you have a recommendation to find samples on the internet?

I find the lens very good but I know that others have been not so enthusiastic. Could be that their QC is not that consistent. 

[Rokkor]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Matlock:

I find the lens very good but I know that others have been not so enthusiastic. Could be that their QC is not that consistent. 

I see. Curious to see some pictures to get an impression. I will take a closer look.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Rokkor

[Rokkor]

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb hilm3:

I really like the M2, especially with a 35mm lens. With a 50mm lens, I even prefer the M2 to my M3 as I see the frame lines better with glasses on. I have an accurate MR-4 that I use to meter, but if traveling compact, a handheld meter or an iPhone app work really well. I use mostly a  Summaron 3.5cm 3.5 in screw mount with an LTM to M adapter on the M2. The camera hails from 1966, the lens from 1958, both in good mechanical and cosmetic condition. 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I am very surprised about the light meter pro app on the iPhone.

The screwmount sounds like a viable option. If it is possible to focus this might be the entry using the m2 with Leica glass.

fascinating you are using such vintage cameras and are still happy with it. Quality!

[earleygallery]

I have an M2 and a lllf.

The M2 is definitely the more practical answer for general photography and especially if you prefer using a 35mm lens. You can use any LTM or M mount lenses so it gives you a lot more choice when buying a lens and if you later decide to move to other M or digital M models you will be familiar with the handling.

However, if I had to let either of mine go I'd be keeping my lllf........

[spydrxx]

I've got a IIf and an M2 presently (along with some other brand screwmounts), having had an M4 for over 40 years and an M6. I strongly agree among my present holdings the M2 is the most versatile in terms of the variety of lenses I can use or adapt to use on it. OTOH, the IIf has an adjustable telescope (AKA diopter) rangefinder, which although squinty, is highly desirable in terms of achieving accurate focus across a variety of focal length lenses due to the magnified image. So there are definitely tradeoffs. I didn't really appreciate screwmount bodies or lenses until about my 40th year of M bodies...it came as quite a revelation. So although most of my work these days is digital, I wouldn't think of getting rid of either my M2 or my IIf.

[hilm3]

Not so vintage compared to me ;O). My dad had a very user condition M3 that he bought decades ago. He mostly shot with his M6. When he passed, I used the M3 for a while but it started getting rough. I sent it out to Youxin Ye for a CLA, along with the Summaron 3.5 and collapsible Elmar 9cm f4, both with some fog. The lenses came back like new. The camera smooth as butter. While they were out for refurbish, I bought the M2 on a whim. Love at first sight. It just feels perfect. This was 5 years ago.

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[Rokkor]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb earleygallery:

I have an M2 and a lllf.

The M2 is definitely the more practical answer for general photography and especially if you prefer using a 35mm lens. You can use any LTM or M mount lenses so it gives you a lot more choice when buying a lens and if you later decide to move to other M or digital M models you will be familiar with the handling.

However, if I had to let either of mine go I'd be keeping my lllf........

Interesting thoughts with the IIIIf as a your choice. LTM would work on the M2 with an adapter.

 

The Leitz Summaron 35mm f/2.8 M-Mount might be a good native M lens and possibly the Zeiss ZM mentioned previously.

  

[Rokkor]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb hilm3:

Not so vintage compared to me ;O). My dad had a very user condition M3 that he bought decades ago. He mostly shot with his M6. When he passed, I used the M3 for a while but it started getting rough. I sent it out to Youxin Ye for a CLA, along with the Summaron 3.5 and collapsible Elmar 9cm f4, both with some fog. The lenses came back like new. The camera smooth as butter. While they were out for refurbish, I bought the M2 on a whim. Love at first sight. It just feels perfect. This was 5 years ago.

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Thanks for sharing this personal story and that you have ended on an M2. Looks pristine. Like new. Very classy. Is Youxin Ye a refurbish/repair site?

[Rokkor]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb spydrxx:

I've got a IIf and an M2 presently (along with some other brand screwmounts), having had an M4 for over 40 years and an M6. I strongly agree among my present holdings the M2 is the most versatile in terms of the variety of lenses I can use or adapt to use on it. OTOH, the IIf has an adjustable telescope (AKA diopter) rangefinder, which although squinty, is highly desirable in terms of achieving accurate focus across a variety of focal length lenses due to the magnified image. So there are definitely tradeoffs. I didn't really appreciate screwmount bodies or lenses until about my 40th year of M bodies...it came as quite a revelation. So although most of my work these days is digital, I wouldn't think of getting rid of either my M2 or my IIf.

Clear standpoint for both. Thanks for your perspective! Interesting it took a while to appreciate the screw mounts.

[hilm3]

1 hour ago, Rokkor said:

Thanks for sharing this personal story and that you have ended on an M2. Looks pristine. Like new. Very classy. Is Youxin Ye a refurbish/repair site?

Yes, Youxin Ye services and repairs classic Leicas in U.S. - Massachusetts.

[Ko.Fe.]

Serviced IIIf will outlasts M2, without double price for CLA.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-Leitz-Screw-Mount-Camera-Sevice-CLA-d-with-90-day-warranty-Wetzlar/283483768189?hash=item4200f3057d:g:TV0AAOSwyTZUX954

I have Barnack Leica from him. And he has two IIIf. 

By now CL is water under the bridge. Just another film camera with too old electronics. 

[ktmrider2]

Well, I have used just about every film M since 1974 except for the M7/MP/MA (too much money for retro technology).  My favorite M's are the M2 and M4 but the viewfinder of the M2 is to die for (if you can live with 35/50/90).  Honestly, Leica could have stopped making cameras after the M2 as later models just had a few different features.  The M2 with a 35 may be all you ever need.  And if you want small and sharp, the 35f2.8 C-Biogon puts just about every other 35mm lens made to shame and is only $900 or so.

I recently (two weeks ago) acquired a Leica 3f with collapsable 50 Summicron.  My total experience with screw mount bodies before buying one from Classic Connection was holding one for five minutes at Red Dot Camera in London about five years ago.  I was not impressed by the small squinty viewfinder.  Well, after using one for a few weeks I have totally changed my opinion.  Now none of the screw mount Leicas will ever be fast but there is something about the jewel like precision which puts even the M series to shame.  I have fallen into lust with the 3f for landscapes and travel.  I just ordered a 50 aux finder for it as the viewfinder is squinty as I said before.  The 3f was made the year of my birth (1952) which influenced the purchase and it is a conversation starter.  I have teamed it with a Fuji X100F for a small travel combo (presently on a 3000 mile motorcycle trip and both fit in tank bag).

Finally, I have owned a couple digital M's (M9 and MP240).  I still have the MP240 but it has not seen much use as the X100F is smaller, cheaper and technologically more advanced.  I may sell the MP240 as I enjoy film more but the MP240 gives all my M mount lenses a chance to be modern.  

I have certainly enjoyed Leicas over almost 50 years.  I think you are just starting an enjoyable experience if you are just getting into them.  I keep coming back for the viewfinder and build quality.  You will not make a wrong choice as you can always sell a used Leica for what you paid for it unless you did not do your homework.  The 3f is 68 years old and was CLA'ed before I purchased it.  My M2 is from 1958.  Don't expect the digitals to age that well but who knows.  If I could only have one, it would be a M2 with a 35 loaded with TriX.  There is something to be said for a classic whether in cars, motorcycles, watches or cameras.

Good luck and fun shooting!

Edited October 3, 2020 by ktmrider2

[jmahto]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:14 PM, Rokkor said:

Hi

after recently having shot a black and white film with my Olympus rangefinder, I am considering looking into a Leica analogue model. First I thought about the Leica IIIf and now I am also thinking about an M2 or further away a CL. Purpose would be good quality alternative film camera with 35mm. Owning a Q I do not have Leica lenses so far. Only minolta Rokkor vintage glass.

 

Curious to hear your thoughts and experiences. What would you consider good prices for each of the models?

thanks a lot.

Lots of useful responses. Therefore I will simply describe my journey. I got M2 first which I enjoy a lot and then I got IIIc/f (converted to f with flash input) because it was cheap, and discovered it to be enjoyable too.

I use M2 as film back to my digital M with modern and old M lenses, whereas I use IIIc/f as primarily 50mm camera with 5cm Elmar (now red scale) and occasionally with 21mm CV f/4 (without external VF). The whole point is being true to Barnack concept as light and compact camera. Although I hear that there is full range of very good screw mount glass available if you desire. But I want to keep it simple and mostly shoot with 5cm Elmar.

With lens collapsed it fits in my jeans pocket and in my bicycle saddle bag.

What is there not to like! Best part is that it is cheap. I guess it is still best kept secret.
 

PS: If you do get it then be aware of different loading technique. Initially I used to trim The film leader but now I use train ticket to slide the film over sprocket without trimming it. It works without fail now. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by jmahto

[Rokkor]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb jmahto:

Lots of useful responses. Therefore I will simply describe my journey. I got M2 first which I enjoy a lot and then I got IIIc/f (converted to f with flash input) because it was cheap, and discovered it to be enjoyable too.

I use M2 as film back to my digital M with modern and old M lenses, whereas I use IIIc/f as primarily 50mm camera with 5cm Elmar (now red scale) and occasionally with 21mm CV f/4 (without external VF). The whole point is being true to Barnack concept as light and compact camera. Although I hear that there is full range of very good screw mount glass available if you desire. But I want to keep it simple and mostly shoot with 5cm Elmar.

With lens collapsed it fits in my jeans pocket and in my bicycle saddle bag.

What is there not to like! Best part is that it is cheap. I guess it is still best kept secret.
 

PS: If you do get it then be aware of different loading technique. Initially I used to trim The film leader but now I use train ticket to slide the film over sprocket without trimming it. It works without fail now. 

Great having you advocating for the screwmounts. Great it also fits into a saddle bag. That is slim indeed. It is true that the Barnacks are kind of cheap depending on which one you would get.

[Rokkor]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb ktmrider2:

Well, I have used just about every film M since 1974 except for the M7/MP/MA (too much money for retro technology).  My favorite M's are the M2 and M4 but the viewfinder of the M2 is to die for (if you can live with 35/50/90).  Honestly, Leica could have stopped making cameras after the M2 as later models just had a few different features.  The M2 with a 35 may be all you ever need.  And if you want small and sharp, the 35f2.8 C-Biogon puts just about every other 35mm lens made to shame and is only $900 or so.

I recently (two weeks ago) acquired a Leica 3f with collapsable 50 Summicron.  My total experience with screw mount bodies before buying one from Classic Connection was holding one for five minutes at Red Dot Camera in London about five years ago.  I was not impressed by the small squinty viewfinder.  Well, after using one for a few weeks I have totally changed my opinion.  Now none of the screw mount Leicas will ever be fast but there is something about the jewel like precision which puts even the M series to shame.  I have fallen into lust with the 3f for landscapes and travel.  I just ordered a 50 aux finder for it as the viewfinder is squinty as I said before.  The 3f was made the year of my birth (1952) which influenced the purchase and it is a conversation starter.  I have teamed it with a Fuji X100F for a small travel combo (presently on a 3000 mile motorcycle trip and both fit in tank bag).

Finally, I have owned a couple digital M's (M9 and MP240).  I still have the MP240 but it has not seen much use as the X100F is smaller, cheaper and technologically more advanced.  I may sell the MP240 as I enjoy film more but the MP240 gives all my M mount lenses a chance to be modern.  

I have certainly enjoyed Leicas over almost 50 years.  I think you are just starting an enjoyable experience if you are just getting into them.  I keep coming back for the viewfinder and build quality.  You will not make a wrong choice as you can always sell a used Leica for what you paid for it unless you did not do your homework.  The 3f is 68 years old and was CLA'ed before I purchased it.  My M2 is from 1958.  Don't expect the digitals to age that well but who knows.  If I could only have one, it would be a M2 with a 35 loaded with TriX.  There is something to be said for a classic whether in cars, motorcycles, watches or cameras.

Good luck and fun shooting!

That is also an interesting perspective and thanks for sharing your experiences with film and digital Ms and a ... Fuji X. 
 

Again it seems that M2 is in the pole position and interesting so many people come to this conclusion that it’s perfect for 35mm lenses. Interesting you prefer the Fuji over the 240 and I can see the weight rationale behind this decision. I would keep the M240 as this is very appealing that you can even still use your old lenses.

Is an aux viewfinder an external one for the IIIf that you have acquired? It is a very cool story that you and your camera is from your birthyear and you are having it with you on your motorcycle tour. In general I can imagine the Barnacks are conversation starters. I find them very classy - with some Art Deco vibe given the design origin.

Enjoy the motorcycle trip and thanks for the experience sharing from your vast amount of cameras.

I will comment on the Biogon and his lens has so many very good reviews indeed for a fraction of a Leica lens. Amazing.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Rokkor]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb jmahto:

Lots of useful responses. Therefore I will simply describe my journey. I got M2 first which I enjoy a lot and then I got IIIc/f (converted to f with flash input) because it was cheap, and discovered it to be enjoyable too.

I use M2 as film back to my digital M with modern and old M lenses, whereas I use IIIc/f as primarily 50mm camera with 5cm Elmar (now red scale) and occasionally with 21mm CV f/4 (without external VF). The whole point is being true to Barnack concept as light and compact camera. Although I hear that there is full range of very good screw mount glass available if you desire. But I want to keep it simple and mostly shoot with 5cm Elmar.

With lens collapsed it fits in my jeans pocket and in my bicycle saddle bag.

What is there not to like! Best part is that it is cheap. I guess it is still best kept secret.
 

PS: If you do get it then be aware of different loading technique. Initially I used to trim The film leader but now I use train ticket to slide the film over sprocket without trimming it. It works without fail now. 

I have just taken a look at your analogue pictures following your Flickr link. Great pictures especially the landscapes with the M2.