Lens and serial number accuracy

[gettons]

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Hello there,

while taking a look at potential 50mm Summicron f2 Type 2 Rigid, I stumbled upon one which does not match with the serial number.

Lens is the one attached. Serial is 1886869. Based on the list here https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f%3D_5_cm_1:2    the serial number leads to a Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M+DR-rigid-chrom) however the lens is NOT a dual range.

 

Does this necessarily means that the lens has been dismantled at some point or if it is just a fake one?

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Edited September 15, 2020 by gettons

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[a.noctilux]

Hello,

this "new" Summicron Rigid 50mm looks quite genuine to me.

I can't believe that it could be DR becoming Rigid.

Easy to find out 😉.

The optical cell (clear glass elements ! ) matching number can be found after unscrewing from the mount.

Enjoy it as it is, don't worry with those numbers.

 

[gettons]

19 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Hello,

this "new" Summicron Rigid 50mm looks quite genuine to me.

I can't believe that it could be DR becoming Rigid.

Easy to find out 😉.

The optical cell (clear glass elements ! ) matching number can be found after unscrewing from the mount.

Enjoy it as it is, don't worry with those numbers.

 

I see. I have asked the seller, and this is what they came back with:

 

This lens got two version, one is DR with Goggles,the other one is what I sold u without the goggles, which worth more. They r both rigid with M mount.

M means normal one with m mount(the one I sold)
+ means and
DR means the goggles one with mount
S means screw mount

 

I do still do not get the explanation for DR, as I thought it would mean Dual Range and not the fact you can attach the googles onto it. Also, you would attach the googles onto a DR only to be honest.

Edited September 15, 2020 by gettons

[BradS]

could it be that the '+' in the  serial number list means 'or' - as in serial numbers in this range were 50mm Summicron, rigid OR dual range, and with M mount

then it makes sense...and there is no forgery involved.

However, It seems like worst case is that some how the front trim ring from a DR lens got put onto a rigid lens...not such a tragedy, me thinks.

 

Clearly, the lens in the OP is not a DR. It is a rigid. The DR was rigid but the rigid is not DR...make sense?

[jdlaing]

When you mount it to an M body does it focus at both the close end and infinity?

[a.noctilux]

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this is Dual Range we see silver ball which retains the goggles, somewhere to slide in the goggles, no infinity lock

on Rigid there is no ball and with infinity lock on the wider focus ring.

Edited September 15, 2020 by a.noctilux

[gettons]

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13 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

When you mount it to an M body does it focus at both the close end and infinity?

yes, it does. But because it's quite an expensive lens still, I wanted to double check it's genuine.

[jdlaing]

There is also no close focus scale to the left of 3’4” on yours.

[jdlaing]

1 minute ago, gettons said:

yes, it does. But because it's quite an expensive lens still, I wanted to double check it's genuine.

If it focuses you’ll be fine. Go for it. It looks in nice shape.

[gettons]

2 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

There is also no close focus scale to the left of 3’4” on yours.

that confirms my hypothesis that this is not a DR. What I still do not understand is why it would have such a serial. Since there is something not right with the serial, I wonder if the glass in there is authentic at all?

[jdlaing]

11 minutes ago, gettons said:

that confirms my hypothesis that this is not a DR. What I still do not understand is why it would have such a serial. Since there is something not right with the serial, I wonder if the glass in there is authentic at all?

Send it back if you’re suspicious. You’ll worry yourself to death. 
How expensive is it?

It looks CLA’d it could have had a different front ring with the serial number put on.

Edited September 15, 2020 by jdlaing

[gettons]

19 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Send it back if you’re suspicious. You’ll worry yourself to death. 
How expensive is it?

It looks CLA’d it could have had a different front ring with the serial number put on.

Possibly, could have been the CLA! The lens is a little over 1k GBP. I am probably worrying too much, but since I am new to Leica, I thought I would ask first.

[TomB_tx]

I understand the optical cell (which unscrews from the focusing mount to use on adapters, etc) is identical between Rigid and DR. So it's quite possible the DR head was simply swapped with a rigid focus mount. If so, it may or may not focus perfectly at all distances - as tolerances are matched to each lens, and even swapping 2 DR heads may have issues.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, gettons said:

Possibly, could have been the CLA! The lens is a little over 1k GBP. I am probably worrying too much, but since I am new to Leica, I thought I would ask first.

Fair price for one in that condition.

[adan]

1. 4 hours ago, gettons said:

   1. Based on the list here https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f%3D_5_cm_1:2    the serial number leads to a Summicron f= 5 cm 1:2 (M+DR-rigid-chrom) however the lens is NOT a dual range.

Warning: The Leica WIki is often not a reliable source - it is produced by unpaid volunteer amateurs, and worth exactly what one pays to use it.

It is not even consistent with its own source document(s) cited, including http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/3/3e/Leica-puts-pocket-book.pdf

Look on page 82 of that published (not internet) source document and find this SN range and description:

1961 - 1885000 to 1888000 - 3000 (lenses) - Summicron - f/20 [sic] - 50(mm)

There is no mention at all there that your lens should be a Dual-Range. And it is not, so everything reliable is correct and consistent.

there is no reason at all to suspect the front ring has been changed since it left the factory.

Your lens is exactly what the original source material says: a 50mm Summicron for M, of unspecified type. Just like it says on the lens ring.

Edited September 16, 2020 by adan

[gettons]

Thanks everyone for taking the time, I am now less worried!

 

[pedaes]

8 hours ago, gettons said:

The lens is a little over 1k GBP.

That is absolutely top price so make 100% sure you are happy. If the numbers on the focusing mount and optical cell don't match, as others have said it will not matter in use, but it will matter when/if you come to sell.

[gettons]

1 hour ago, pedaes said:

That is absolutely top price so make 100% sure you are happy. If the numbers on the focusing mount and optical cell don't match, as others have said it will not matter in use, but it will matter when/if you come to sell.

Would you mind to instruct me on how to check that? Sorry for the dumb question.

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[a.noctilux]

42 minutes ago, gettons said:

Would you mind to instruct me on how to check that? Sorry for the dumb question.

The optical cell can be unscrewed from the body.

Grab the front milled ring, unscrew while holding the focussing part with infinity locked.

The same number will be seen in the mechanic mount as the optical cell to prevent that user mixe up the parts.

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

photos from Leicashop website

Edited September 16, 2020 by a.noctilux

[Rob L]

In most cases, if the optical head and the focus mount are not matched or paired at the factory or by an experienced service tech, the index points for aperture and focus will not be in alignment. Yours looks to be good. Also very clean.

Not to open up a different can of worms, but the majority of these Summicrons from the 50s and 60s have haze. Hard to find one that doesn't. This is due to the glass formulation used in those days having a high heavy metal content mostly and less so from condensed lubricant as is often claimed. Lubricant condensation generally cleans up fine but etching in the coating from the acidity created by moisture condensation on these old coatings is tough.  A little haze is not an issue, but might be worth doing a flashlight test to check.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/flashlight-test.htm