Long lenses, slow shutter speeds and tripods

[masjah]

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Here's the situation. I've got the 280/4 Apo, and the 2X Apo converter, which would give a 560/8 combination. I'm inside a cathedral, wishing to photograph a detail high in the roof requiring this combination. I've got a good quality tripod (Manfrotto 055MF4 + junior gear head). This requires an exposure of seconds (more seconds if I stop down for a bit more of the meagre depth of field). The tripod is on the rigid stone floor of the cathedral. No wind inside the building of course.

 

My question is, at these extended focal lengths, will an exposure of seconds inevitably lead to camera-shake related unsharpness, even when using a tripod?

 

I need to work out whether any unsharpness is down to focus/depth of field difficulties, or camera shake. When I do the focussing, I end up with the same focus setting whether I'm using the outer microprism ring or by going for best contrast on the ground glass of the outer part of the screen, so I'm reasonably conifdent of that (I also use the right angle finder with 2X magnification.)

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[erl]

John,

 

I am assuming you are using an 'R' camera, not an 'M'. In which case, I recommend using the built in time delay to trip the shuter if you don't have a cable release. Either way, you isolate the camera/tripod combo from any movement you may induce. Barring earthquakes, I can think of no other source of camera movement so you should be fine. Good luck.

[jlancasterd]

Here's the situation. I've got the 280/4 Apo, and the 2X Apo converter, which would give a 560/8 combination. I'm inside a cathedral, wishing to photograph a detail high in the roof requiring this combination. I've got a good quality tripod (Manfrotto 055MF4 + junior gear head). This requires an exposure of seconds (more seconds if I stop down for a bit more of the meagre depth of field). The tripod is on the rigid stone floor of the cathedral. No wind inside the building of course.

 

My question is, at these extended focal lengths, will an exposure of seconds inevitably lead to camera-shake related unsharpness, even when using a tripod?

 

I need to work out whether any unsharpness is down to focus/depth of field difficulties, or camera shake. When I do the focussing, I end up with the same focus setting whether I'm using the outer microprism ring or by going for best contrast on the ground glass of the outer part of the screen, so I'm reasonably conifdent of that (I also use the right angle finder with 2X magnification.)

 

You could try hanging a heavy weight from the tripod head as a damper.

[masjah]

Erl and John

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Erl, yes, I use an R8 and an R9. I always use both the mirror lock-up and the time delay to minimise any camera induced vibration.

 

John, That thought had crossed my mind too, though I haven't tried it yet!

[jank]

Fw more detais:

1/longer exposure may help, since initial short shake due shutter release will be more underexposed ( a fraction of a second of shake in ratio to several secons of total exposure)

2/rubber pads in tripod mounts , (camera to tripod,rubber tripod feet,) have a "memory", they tend to settle for some time, it is better to remove them in critical cases and use metal to metal connection.

3/rubber boots on tripod feet, screw them back and use exposed spikes (if permissible).place spikes into grooves between tiles to prevent slippin on floor surface.

4/ hold the cable release steady

5/shield lense from draft, ther might be a sudden air movement , puff, when somebody shuts the door.

6/ let whole think settle fo a while, take multiple exposures

With gread lenses and finest electronic emulsions, one should achieve a definition down to the grain/pixel size.

Good luck

Jan

[jank]

Few more points,

in one of past issues of LFI was an article evaluating several tripods.

The best one for the price,having good damping factor would be a wooden tripod.

One can buyone in Hardware store (e.g.Menards) tool dept. whre they sell these laser gadgets.

Or perhaps make one from wooden crutches.Amateur astronomers have good experience with it.

Jan

[spydrxx]

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Another thought - don't try to shoot when tourists or others are in the cathedral as their footsteps might provide a source of vibration, and don't forget reciprocity factors given your lengthy exposures.

[jank]

Another thought - don't try to shoot when tourists or others are in the cathedral as their footsteps might provide a source of vibration, and don't forget reciprocity factors given your lengthy exposures.

 

I do not shoot tourists ,or shoot when they are present.I try to avoid them.

 

Interesting,

reciprocity factors as I recall from a film era applies tor a photochemical process.

I have used in past these factors rather arbitrarily, not investigating them in any detail. It worked.Sort of.

 

Now an important question:

Is anybody aware of any such an effect in these modern photoeelectrical times?

 

Jan

[masjah]

Jan and Steve, thanks for the tips. I'm afraid people are an unavoidable presence in these places (when they are open) and I always wondered how much vibration they could induce, given the stone floor of a cathedral. Point noted about reducing compliance between connected surfaces - I think it's important though to distinguish between compliance and dissipative damping materials - I'll give that some more thought! Thanks again.

[erl]

I should reiterate that John's suggestion, above, about hanging a heavy weight, even just your camera bag, from the centre column is a much underated technique. I should have mentioned it myself. Simple and effective.

[ho_co]

John--

I think everything has been said above, but that won't stop me from honing some details.

 

More important than people's feet would be passing trains/trams/buses/lorries etc.

 

You describe an extreme case. The heaviest tripod you can get will likely still allow some wiggle. You can test by mounting the camera and lens on it, then putting a little pressure on one end of the combination and releasing. Any movement is too much, though possibly unavoidable. Remember, the tripod mounts under the lens; that means you're creating a see-saw pivoted at that point. And that means that the whole thing will swing like a pendulum about that center, even if just a couple microns and for less than a second.

 

For that reason--ta-DAAH!--a new point: You might consider either a second tripod or a monopod under the camera to damp its motion better.

 

Also consider a sandbag atop the lens, over the tripod mount or between the two if you're using the monopod as well.

 

Remember as well that just the firing of the shutter creates some motion. One trick often used for astrophotography is to hold a piece of cardboard in front of the lens for maybe 4 to 5 seconds after the shutter opens to allow the measures you've taken to work; then remove the cardboard (being careful not to touch the lens) to start the exposure. Similarly at the end: put the cardboard back in front of the lens so it is masked before closing the shutter.

 

In fact, assuming a well-damped system, an exposure of 10 sec is probably better than one of 1/10 sec because any wiggle imparted by firing the shutter will take a far smaller fraction of the exposure time the longer the shutter is open.

 

Oh, and try not to shoot during an earthquake.

 

Gee, if we keep adding to this list of to-do's, you'll never get around to taking the pictures!

 

--HC

[masjah]

Howard

 

You've put your finger on it - mine is indeed the extreme case - which I guess is why I raised it, in order to gather all the suggestions I could get! Yours are extremely helpful - especially the idea of a second tripod or monopod. The possibility of shutter vibration (apart that is from mirror slap, which I've hopefully eliminated using lock-up and time delay) was something I'd considered, but I didn't know how to handle it - the cardboard trick is a clever one. Many thanks for all these ideas.

[jaapv]

To absorb slight external vibrations: Beanbag!

[rick_dykstra]

A beanbag would be a great idea. I use one that weighs a couple of kilograms, filled with rice, sitting out on top of the lens. But the best and most convenient anti-vibration trick is to use a Manfrotto Long Lens Support. Check the link below.

 

Once you have the whole sheebang locked down, it might be time to add a couple of wooden rods, set like an A frame, gently wedged under the body. These measures will control the vibration within the camera system as much as possible.

[masjah]

Jaap and Rick

 

Thanks very much for these suggestions!

[lxlim]

One other idea. Rent a gyrostabilizer(ken-labs).

 

Tripod mount the lens and mount the stabilizer under the camera body.

 

Alex

[ejd]

I hope you get around to taking some pictures!

[masjah]

I hope you get around to taking some pictures!

John

 

Ha! I'm just thinking of York Minster, humping my tripod, camera, long lens and extender, long lens auxiliary support (or second tripod or monopod) and bean bag, either from the railway station to the Minster, or from the Park and Ride bus drop-off to the Minster! How I suffer for my art!

 

I've done it before without the bean bag and additional support, but will this break the camel's back?

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[masjah]

OK I thought people might be interested in the best I could do without employing all the helpful suggestions in this thread. It's the main central tower central ceiling boss at York Minster, must be 150 feet up. This image was taken before I started the thread. R9, Reala, 280/4+ 2X Apo Extender, HIgh Street Fuji Frontierlab scan, rescaled to Forum size in GIMP.

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[Overgaard]

It will be interesting to see the results when you use the tricks given here.

 

I bet not many high quality pictures exist of it so it is nice when somebody will do it right and preserve it. Also, it's interesting to look at and study in detail (without having to bend your back for hours).

 

Good luck with it.