New Leica lenses Made in Portugal

[logan2z]

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53 minutes ago, adan said:

I'm not pursuaded the manufacturing in Portugal amounts to much more than "final assembly" and shipping. Ship a German-built lens to Portugal in two or three pieces (one engraved "Made in Portugal"), assemble them together, put them in the boxes marked "Made in Portugal," and ship them.

My guess is none of this will matter.  Whether or not there is any meaningful difference between the two lenses, I suspect that a Made in Portugal lens will be viewed by many/most as inferior to a Made in Germany lens.  Again, purely perception, but perception is everything. 

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[willeica]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:38 PM, pedaes said:

What is your evidence for this statement? Cameras with 'Made in Midland' engravings are more valuable and sought after than Wetzlar built examples where they were being assembled at both locations. Many would argue that some of Leica's greatest lenses were designed by Dr. Mandler in the Midland plant, and subsequently built there. How about an original Noctilux for $30,000?

Spot on, Keith. Apple make computers in China. Would they be able to charge more and would they be better made if they were made in the US? Also the lesson that tariffs can affect international trade is one that has been learnt the hard way many times in history. Whether we like it or not the marketplace for goods and services is now global and once standards are maintained there can be no issue about where* goods are made. I have a very large collection of Leica cameras and lenses. I have never bought any of them because they were made in Germany. I bought them because (a) they were good and/or (b) they were interesting. The place of manufacture was not of any concern. 

William

* subject to issues about labour conditions and other ethical concerns

[rramesh]

https://leicarumors.com/2020/08/26/just-released-nine-leica-m-mount-lenses-made-in-portugal-with-new-lower-pricing.aspx/

Are these assembled in Portugal or made there?

[logan2z]

Now we have three threads on the same subject 😊

 

[rramesh]

Wonder if the replacement aperture rings reading 'Made in Germany" will reflect the price differential.

[rivi1969]

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/news/announcing-leica-m-lenses-designed-in-germany-made-in-portugal/BI/734/KBID/1035/kwid/ez

Something should happen with international laws because these lenses were already made in Portugal even though they were branded as ”Made in Germany”, now.

I am glad they have to go straight. 

[adan]

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What are you talking about?

It has been known for decades that Leica has a Portugal factory. And made some complete products there - clearly marked "Made in Portugal"

Heck, I saw R4s marked "Portugal" nearly 40 years ago. https://www.catawiki.com/l/22378015-leica-r4-mot-electronic-made-in-portugal

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2019/10/04/five-factory-sealed-leica-r4-units-are-up-for-grabs/

With apologies to George Santayana: "Those who who do not remember History are doomed to look silly on the Internet."

If you haven't been keeping up, Leica has just announced that some lenses are now (as of this summer) finished and shipped from the decades-old Portugal factory to avoid US tariffs on German-made optics. And clearly marked "Portugal." Lenses made in Germany are marked "Made in Germany."

All nice and legal. It is not rocket science.

 

[adan]

Four......😟

 

[adan]

But to answer the original question, assembled enough to avoid the US tariffs currently in effect on German-labelled optics. Only sold in the US, and only so long as the tariffs remain in effect.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/danke-trump-german-cameras-and-lenses-to-be-subject-to-25-import-fees

[logan2z]

16 minutes ago, adan said:

Four......😟

 

🙄

[pop]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb rivi1969:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/news/announcing-leica-m-lenses-designed-in-germany-made-in-portugal/BI/734/KBID/1035/kwid/ez

Something should happen with international laws because these lenses were already made in Portugal even though they were branded as ”Made in Germany”, now.

I am glad they have to go straight. 

The article does not say what you say. It says clearly "Leica is shifting production of select Leica M-series lenses to Portugal." Production was not in Portugal before. It will be in Portugal after the shift. 

[LocalHero1953]

Being a forum moderator must be a bit like playing whack-a-mole.

[250swb]

12 hours ago, Jean-Michel said:

Hi,

I am quite sure that you are correct on this. And, there is no cynical move on any of it, the lenses and cameras were and still are Leicas. What I referred to was that, according to some articles I read some years ago and databases of Leica serial numbers, that some items, such as my M3, engraved with 'Germany' were actually made in Midland. For example, my M3 falls in the 866621 to 867000 range and according to https://www.cameraquest.com/leicanum.htm it is one of 380 M3 bodies assembled in Midland; the engraving says "WETZLAR Germany" no particular "made in" reference.

FYI, the http://www.summilux.net/numeros/ site allows you to enter the serial number of a lens and it will show the year of manufacture. They do not claim accuracy as it seems that Leic used to assign batches of numbers to a production and occasionally a different product would end up with a serial number from within that batch of numbers. Their database if for items predating 2006.

 

So Midland send a telegram to Wetzlar saying 'urgent, we need some top plates' so Wetzlar send the top plates they have.

As for serial numbers they were added (until recently) when the individual component was made. So a front ring on a lens would be made with a serial number on it, and they were made in batches. Same for top plates. On the assembly line the numbered components were taken more or less randomly from the pile. There was no strict order for a lens or body being manufactured on a certain date identifiable from its serial number. You will see this is logical because cameras and lenses go back and forth on the assembly line for numerous adjustments. If one camera is pulled out during final QC and has to go back to the beginning the whole assembly line would have to wait until it gets back in sequence. So serial numbers are assigned in batches between certain dates, nothing more. The recorded date that serial number leaves the factory is another thing because it may have sat on a shelf for six months.

What people do now with old serial numbers is try to find a conspiracy behind them to justify a 'better or worse' story line and there has always been a snooty attitude to Canada and Portugal from hard core Wetzlerites. And one thing they do is confuse build quality with design quality. I personally believe there is no 'build quality' disparity between any of the Leica plants, build quality is checked during QC and there is no reason to think standards are higher at one or the other, it makes no sense to have a 'Pass or Fail' at Wetzlar and a 'Maybe' in Portugal, especially when they were all serviced or repaired at the nearest place to the customer. Design quality does come into the equation especially regarding lenses when Canada went it's own way, but that is another story.

[rramesh]

Maybe Leica should color the lens markings to mirror the country of manufacture, here red and green (Portugal flag). It will make them truly desirable and some will want to buy the whole series as a set. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by rramesh

[Stuart Richardson]

If you visit the Leica factory in Germany, the cafeteria has large pictures of the factory in Portugal as well as its workers. It looks beautiful and modern. They are not trying to hide anything, and if you truly think that there is anything that a German worker can do that a similarly trained and equipped Portuguese worker can't do, you might consider a bit of soul searching about what that kind of thinking did for Germany in the past, and what it does all over the world to this day. At least from my own perspective, one major cost and benefit of manufacturing in the EU is knowing that the people that made the lenses have better labor practices. There are obviously cultural differences in terms of how different places prioritize their lives and the ways they work, but I don't think Made in Portugal raises any flags at all. They have been making things there for decades.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Stuart Richardson

[pippy]

3 hours ago, adan said:

...assembled enough to avoid the US tariffs currently in effect on German-labelled optics...

I love this bit from the link posted in adan's answer;

"...(the) administration wants to encourage consumers to buy products made in the US. Which makes total sense! Finally, all those American camera manufacturers can stop being sidelined. Like Red, and, uh… Well, I guess we're just lucky Red are known for their consumer-oriented cameras!..."

Seriously, though; what a Completely Insane situation.

Philip.

Edited August 27, 2020 by pippy

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, rramesh said:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/08/26/just-released-nine-leica-m-mount-lenses-made-in-portugal-with-new-lower-pricing.aspx/

Are these assembled in Portugal or made there?

Impossible to. give a clear answer, as the production processes. between Leica Germany and. Leica Portugal are quite integrated. Best to answer is  that they are made wherever Leica says they are made.

[nicci78]

Portugal was just a part supplier. Final assembly were made in Germany at Wetzlar. Hence the made in Germany label on every "real" Leica cameras and lenses for the last 15 years at least.

Due to 25% tariffs on German optics. Leica has to shift final assembly to Portugal for US customers only. Hence the new made in Portugal M lenses. Not a big deal. 

But I guess that made in Portugal will be cheaper on second hand market. Just like made in Canada ones are. 

But it will only concern US citizens. So I don't care that much about it. 

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pop]

I'll start worrying when it turns out that they make the Noctilux at daytime and not during the night at all.

[jaapv]

46 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Portugal was just a part supplier. Final assembly were made in Germany at Wetzlar. Hence the made in Germany label on every "real" Leica cameras and lenses for the last 15 years at least.

Due to 25% tariffs on German optics. Leica has to shift final assembly to Portugal for US customers only. Hence the new made in Portugal M lenses. Not a big deal. 

But I guess that made in Portugal will be cheaper on second hand market. Just like made in Canada ones are. 

But it will only concern US citizens. So I don't care that much about it. 

 

 

Precisely  - production between Vila Nova and Wetzlar is so integrated that the two should be regarded as one factory in two locations. "Made in" should be regarded as the place where the product walked out of the door.