M10-R or M10-M plus CL

[omalat]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I have a M9 and a M9 Monochrom and both have corroded sensors. I decided to take advantage of the Leica trade in program for affected M9s. I shoot mostly Black & White and loved the old Monochrom however I need colour sometimes. I feel that the M10-R files should be able to make decent monochrome conversions at least as satisfying as those produced by my old MM. Does anyone have an opinion on how well colour converts to B&W on the M10-R or will I miss a Monochrome only camera? I don't really want to have to buy a M10-M plus say a CL for colour.

[T25UFO]

The M10-R files should be fine to convert but using a Monochrom camera is more than just about file conversion.

I use a Mono alongside the Q2 and this makes a great combination; the only downside is cost!  Having said that Leica purchases are for the long term.  Your M9 and MM combo are probably 11 and 9 years old respectively and I guess you would keep them longer if it wasn’t for the sensor issues.  They still have part exchange and your next purchase should last even longer.

That is how I try to justify my investment in Leica 🙂

[omalat]

39 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

The M10-R files should be fine to convert but using a Monochrom camera is more than just about file conversion.

I use a Mono alongside the Q2 and this makes a great combination; the only downside is cost!  Having said that Leica purchases are for the long term.  Your M9 and MM combo are probably 11 and 9 years old respectively and I guess you would keep them longer if it wasn’t for the sensor issues.  They still have part exchange and your next purchase should last even longer.

That is how I try to justify my investment in Leica 🙂

Thank you for your reply and your suggestion. Indeed my M cameras are both old and considering the trade in offer from Leica they are cheap cameras to own. About €1 or £1 per day! I will go and look again at a Q2.

[onasj]

The M10M is still head and shoulders above the M10R for high-ISO noise and acuity.  See here:

Of course, you lose the ability to make color-to-value adjustments during BW conversion that you get with the M10R.  In practice, unless you do a lot of photography at high ISO values (dark stage photography, for example), I think the M10R will be a more versatile choice.  If you want the very best (black and white) image quality that currently exists short of a medium format camera, the M10M is it.

[M11 for me]

The CL would certainly not be that standard 🥱

I would strait go to the M10-R. The difference to the Monochrome is probably very, very, very hard to see. And maybe you see just something different but not something better. Hm, why is there a Monochrom at all. I wonder a lot as I do a lot of B&W with just my M10 and work on the DNGs in LR. I find the result is terrific.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by M10 for me

[omalat]

1 hour ago, onasj said:

The M10M is still head and shoulders above the M10R for high-ISO noise and acuity.  See here:

Of course, you lose the ability to make color-to-value adjustments during BW conversion that you get with the M10R.  In practice, unless you do a lot of photography at high ISO values (dark stage photography, for example), I think the M10R will be a more versatile choice.  If you want the very best (black and white) image quality that currently exists short of a medium format camera, the M10M is it.

This is exactly what I wanted to know. Very helpful information indeed. Thank you for sending me the link. I have a R on order but I lose sleep every night thinking if I will miss a Monochrom. After reading your report, I think I will be happy with the R.

[Tailwagger]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

M10-R + M246?

As always, such things are very personal. I'm interested an M10-M, but from a practical POV... if any of these things can be called practical... the R, like my M10 before it is perfectly capable of producing monochrome files I'm happy with.  While I appreciated the 10-M's hyper acuity, for certain landscapes and modern architecture it could be quite useful, in general I don't tend gravitate to that sort of rendering.  Being of a certain age, my first sensor being Tri-X, I prefer a less polished look.  Coming from an M9M, I could imagine you might share that sensibility. If so, then perhaps the 10-R is the more flexible choice. 

[Graafber]

This conversation is repeating itself every time a new color m is coming after the last leica m monochrom. I sold my monochrome m’s thinking I will be satisfied with the bnw result of the new colored m.

Those results are good, without a doubt, but the feeling is different. If 90% of the photos you make are bnw, buy a monochrome, thats where you belong. You think bnw, you feel bnw, you see directly bnw. 

I have a q2 for colors, if needed, like holidays. Also lighter during walking in the mountain. 

[otto.f]

15 hours ago, omalat said:

This is exactly what I wanted to know. Very helpful information indeed. Thank you for sending me the link. I have a R on order but I lose sleep every night thinking if I will miss a Monochrom. After reading your report, I think I will be happy with the R.

Do you really need that high ISO’s as n M10M? I really doubt that. Sleep well!

[omalat]

Thank you all for your responses. I think Graafber has nailed it in that I probably think in monochrome but then Tailwagger is also correct in that I tend towards a Tri X  (or Agfapan) sensor. The b&w conversions from the M9 were never that satisfying which is why I loved the M9M. I am sure technology has moved along it is whether the software in my head can adapt.

Edited August 20, 2020 by omalat

[FrozenInTime]

M + CL can be a good combination :  sometimes a more casual approach is a refreshing change ; other times the purity of the M feels spot on.

[Tailwagger]

17 hours ago, omalat said:

Thank you all for your responses. I think Graafber has nailed it in that I probably think in monochrome but then Tailwagger is also correct in that I tend towards a Tri X  (or Agfapan) sensor. The b&w conversions from the M9 were never that satisfying which is why I loved the M9M. I am sure technology has moved along it is whether the software in my head can adapt.

I think it's extremely important to mention the lens in this calculation. I'm amazed when I see a 50 APO on a 10-M, but I'm not in love. OTOH, I totally adore the way my 50 'lux renders on the 10-R. Others, say the SEM 21 or ZD 35mm, tend to produce a higher contrast, more modern look and in that sort of contest I'd not be surprised to learn the the 10-R falls visibly short of its monochrome sibling when those optics are mounted. But typically when thinking in B&W, I'm not looking for ruthlessness, rather gentility. Some might hate this sort of rendering, but as an example, this is the sort of tonality, via the 50 'lux, that at least has me fooled into thinking that I don't need an 10-M. Want, of course, is a different story. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[omalat]

Once again food for thought and that image, plus some others of yours on another thread, has really helped. Sleeping well now and looking forward to my R arriving soon. Thank you.

[otto.f]

6 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Want, of course, is a different story. 

I must say I am quite meticulous myself in judging camera’s and lenses. But aren’t you a bit hairsplitting here? It’s a beautiful photo indeed but I cannot imagine that this scene would evoke different feelings in the viewer with either the M10M or the converted M10R shot. I once tested the differences between the M9M and the M10 conversions once, they were very very hard to distinguish. Working with a Monochrome is mostly a matter of attitude, way of seeing, a way of life with your camera, instead of a really different image quality. That is, nowadays; the difference between M9 conversions and M9M was much much bigger. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by otto.f

[Tailwagger]

I'd argue that 

3 hours ago, otto.f said:

Working with a Monochrome is mostly a matter of attitude, way of seeing, a way of life with your camera, instead of a really different image quality....

Totally get that and 1000% agree that the process is a large part of the appeal. However advocates of the 10-M often cite added ISO and lack of filter layer having a noticeable impact on IQ.  I haven't shot them side by side, so I'm speculating, but from what I've seen, I believe they are telling the truth.  Certainly the physics involved supports their assertions. Right up to the day I bought the 10-R, I was asking myself 'keep the M10, buy a 10-M or trade the M10 and just get the 10-R'.  Having an SL2 pushed me toward the latter, but had my aim for the camera been more focused on producing monochrome city or land scapes, my belief is that the 10-M would have been a superior choice.

I have little doubt the 10-M can produce similar tone to the above, but my point was precisely the opposite. Simply that the 10-M is not the only path for making a convincing B&W photo, assuming one isn't totally addicted to 50 APO + 10-M hyper acuity that can be seen elsewhere on the site. I don't own that lens, so I can say how the R would fare with it, perhaps the output would be closer than I suspect.  I'd love to have the capability that duo seems to provide. It's a look, however, that is not high enough on my list to justify the outlay.  That said, I can easily see where for some, it would be and if so, why they are so dogged about utilizing a 10-M for monochrome work.

Perhaps either case is splitting hairs... dunno... but I do have a feeling that for some chores the 10-R might struggle to match the 10-M. My only point to the OP was that the 10-R can produce convincing B&W particularly if one's lens choices lean in a certain direction and if so, likely he would be happy with the R.  In my case, despite the internal debate leading up to acquiring the10-R, I've yet to find myself thinking in post, 'I really wish I had an 10-M for that shot.'  But I can see in my head certain scenes in downtown Boston that I might need to avoid if I want to be able to continue to claim this in future. 

[omalat]

On 8/19/2020 at 2:59 PM, M10 for me said:

In my case, despite the internal debate leading up to acquiring the10-R, I've yet to find myself thinking in post, 'I really wish I had an 10-M for that shot.' 

 

 

This is what I was hoping to hear. Once I have the R I don't want to miss the M/can't afford to miss the M. Thank you all for your considered responses, I am so glad that I posted this thread.

 

[jonoslack]

18 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I think it's extremely important to mention the lens in this calculation. I'm amazed when I see a 50 APO on a 10-M, but I'm not in love. OTOH, I totally adore the way my 50 'lux renders on the 10-R. Others, say the SEM 21 or ZD 35mm, tend to produce a higher contrast, more modern look and in that sort of contest I'd not be surprised to learn the the 10-R falls visibly short of its monochrome sibling when those optics are mounted. But typically when thinking in B&W, I'm not looking for ruthlessness, rather gentility. Some might hate this sort of rendering, but as an example, this is the sort of tonality, via the 50 'lux, that at least has me fooled into thinking that I don't need an 10-M. Want, of course, is a different story. 

Really interesting you should say this, I have both the 50 'lux and the 50 APO and I've fallen back in love with the 50 Lux on the M10-R 

Lovely picture too!

[jonoslack]

I shoot at least as much colour as black and white (so the calculation might be different). But I had to decide whether to get an M10-M or an M10-R, having spent many months testing each of them, and it was a really easy decision for me. My lovely Chrome M10-R arrived last week

[Tailwagger]

2 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Really interesting you should say this, I have both the 50 'lux and the 50 APO and I've fallen back in love with the 50 Lux on the M10-R 

Lovely picture too!

The lux on this body is a revelation. At the risk of sounding silly, I find something about this pairing that nearly brings me to tears when I see the files. Both color and B&W. It feels as though when Leica was finalizing the camera, they specifically benchmarked the settings for this lens. It is glorious!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Really interesting you should say this, I have both the 50 'lux and the 50 APO and I've fallen back in love with the 50 Lux on the M10-R 

Lovely picture too!

Jono, are you going to keep the APO?

Jeff