Leica discontinues CCD (M9 and Variants) sensor production

[Jeff S]

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https://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/Global/2020/Repair-capacity-for-camera-models-Leica-M9-M9-P-M9-Monochrom-M-E
 

Jeff

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[Joakim]

Almost 11 years since the introduction,  that's an impressive length of time. 

[mmx_2]

I guess value of cameras without the new sensor will plummet...

[Jeff S]

23 minutes ago, Joakim said:

Almost 11 years since the introduction,  that's an impressive length of time. 

But less than Leica’s stated goal to maintain parts for 10 years after end of model production, if possible.  Still better than many other companies.  
 

Jeff

[mmx_2]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

But less than Leica’s stated goal to maintain parts for 10 years after end of model production, if possible.  Still better than many other companies.  
 

Jeff

I would assume that the decision lays entirely on the sensor supplier. Normally in these cases you can make a “last time buy”. Maybe the sensors where discontinued already some time ago and Leica has been living of their own stock (and possible underestimated the demand for new sensors).

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, mmx_2 said:

I guess value of cameras without the new sensor will plummet...

Alternatively, I wonder the effect, if any, on those cameras with (verifiable) new sensor replacement.

Jeff

[mmx_2]

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1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Alternatively, I wonder the effect, if any, on those cameras with (verifiable) new sensor replacement.

Jeff

They have been quite stable pricewise so far, also M8s (where sensor are also not available any more) have been, so I don’t it will have any impact. A M9 Mono with new sensor might even increase in price.

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, mmx_2 said:

A M9 Mono with new sensor might even increase in price.

That was my point... up, not down... possibly.

Leica Miami already has (last I checked)  a pristine silver MM with under 2k actuations and 1 year Leica warranty following sensor replacement and service.  It has been sitting there uncharacteristically for weeks priced at $4495, much higher than clean black versions, but this might prompt more interest.

Jeff

[carbon_dragon]

Am I the only one who thinks Leica should come up with some kind of accommodation for M9 owners (even though it's not legally obliged to)? Why should they? Because people buy and keep Leicas for longer and that is part of how they justify the cost. Like a reasonably priced upgrade path, or a new sensor that fits in the camera, or something. Otherwise someone shopping for a M10R right now will think to themselves, Hmmm... I guess Leica is just like all the other brands with only maintaining repair capability for maybe a decade. Maybe it's not a good idea to spend that premium a price when I can get something cheaper. Sure the Leica is made better, but the case is meaningless without the sensor so the great workmanship isn't as important.

[LocalHero1953]

I believe it is the same with the M6 TTL? Repairs to the exposure meter are no longer possible. I'm sure someone will correct me. And the DMR or R bodies?

The OP's link refers to a trade-up option. 

Quote

In place of the sensor exchange we are offering new attractive conditions to our customers to trade in their camera with a defective sensor and purchase a current Leica camera model.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[carbon_dragon]

I guess that is better than nothing. But M9 to M10 is about $6000. Now is the M10 new? I couldn't tell. I bought my used M10 at about $6000. Tamarkin has them for $5500. You might well do better selling your M9 in these circumstances for parts and just buying a used M10. Course if it's new you might get all the boxes and stuff, maybe that's worth it?

[Ko.Fe.]

  

22 hours ago, Jeff S said:

 Still better than many other companies.  
 

Jeff

Not really. My M-E 220 is made by the end of 2015. Less than five years old Leica.  With cameras still showing up with corrosion it is epic failure to provide support for bad choice of sensors which Leica was sitting on for years.  

 

 

 

[Ko.Fe.]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

The OP's link refers to a trade-up option. 

 

Correction, rip-off option. 

[rivi1969]

8 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

Am I the only one who thinks Leica should come up with some kind of accommodation for M9 owners (even though it's not legally obliged to)? Why should they? Because people buy and keep Leicas for longer and that is part of how they justify the cost... "

11 years of service are plenty for an electronic device. However if they don't want to service a 2015 M-E camera that's another story.

I think Leica's trade-in program is terrible when the owner's of their cameras are forced to buy something else. For example, if I decided to trade my M9-P (Thank God it has a recently installed new sensor) I need to pay an additional 3500 Euros, when a new camera in the US costs the equivalent of 4200 Euros or a mint one even less of what they are asking.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by rivi1969

[rivi1969]

5 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

  

Not really. My M-E 220 is made by the end of 2015. Less than five years old Leica.  With cameras still showing up with corrosion it is epic failure to provide support for bad choice of sensors which Leica was sitting on for years.  

 

 

 

Does cameras made in 2015 like your M-E still came with the faulty sensor?

[adan]

Just for clarity, the CCD sensors have been on borrowed time since 2011.

When Kodak (on the verge of bankruptcy) spun off their Image Sensor Solutions (ISS) division as an independent company eventually called TrueSense. Which itself morphed into OnSemi. Which ceased CCD production of all types this past March - and issued a "last call for orders" in Sept. 2019.

https://www.svs-vistek.com/en/news/svs-news-article.php?p=onsemi-ccd-sensor-discontinuance-notification

_______________________

Let's face it. A digital camera is a computer that takes pictures.

And the U.S. tax actuaries (at least) count computers as five-year property (along with other office equipment, road vehicles, and breeding/dairy cattle ) - one can write off the cost over 5 years because it is assumed it will be mostly worthless after that time. Whether it be unreplaceable or obsolete parts, or non-supported software, or a general incompatability with advances in the technological ecosystem. Its life will be over.

(For that matter they can be written off completely ("expensed") in the year of purchase, as more or less an operating expense rather than a capital purchase.)

Now, 1) hobbyists aren't going to think about a tax break, and 2) there will obviously be a bell-curve that means a 5-year device may well still function effectively beyond (or less than) that 5-year estimate, and 3) may have a market value greater than zero despite that estimate (Heck, one can still get $150-$200 for a 1987 Mac Plus!)

As I recall, a CCD ME cost $1500 less than the predecessor M9 - so it had part of a "write-off" built into the walk-away price.

$1200-1500 per year (or less) to own a digital camera - either one can live with that reality, or one can't.

Or one can figure that saves at least that much on other operating expenses, such as film and processing. 60 rolls of color slide film? Heck I have shot that in a weekend! 2160 shots - fits on one 64gig card.

Or one can figure one gets first-class fun and enjoyment for 5 years (and quite possibly more - I got 7.5 years out of my M9s) for the price of some 1-month vacations (or in some cases, just a first-class airline ticket alone).

[rramesh]

With technology unfortunately, obsolescence depends a lot on the part most likely to fail. With the M8 it was the LCD, not a biggie, but with the M9, it was the sensor, rendering it quite unusable. It was fantastic for Leica to offer a fee replacement of the M9 sensor, out of warranty, for quite a while. Most good digital cameras should last you 8-10 years or more.

If you have taken 30,000 shots with your digital M, it would equate to 833 rolls of 35mm film costing about $5,833 @ $7 per roll. at the store and a lot more to process. I think its worth it.

Edited August 9, 2020 by rramesh

[Ko.Fe.]

8 hours ago, rivi1969 said:

Does cameras made in 2015 like your M-E still came with the faulty sensor?

Yes. I have to send it for replacement to USA, via dealer in Toronto.

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[rivi1969]

5 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Yes. I have to send it for replacement to USA, via dealer in Toronto.

Leica should have to know exactly how many cameras they produced with faulty sensors and have enough spares for them. 

What is going to happen with your M-E which is less than 5-years old, so are you going to take the trade? You would be better off selling it for parts and buying a mint-body from a reputable dealer.

Edited August 9, 2020 by rivi1969

[carbon_dragon]

I see two viewpoints here, both of which I see as valid. Let's forget about Leica for a minute and just consider Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, and every other camera maker. Obsolescence happens quickly and electronic parts go out of production fairly frequently. If you consider the life of a DIGITAL camera (not a regular camera) or a digital anything (home computer for instance), you don't want to abandon your device as soon as your customer takes possession but it sometimes felt like that with computers decades ago. How long is reasonable to maintain repair capability? Well, two ways to look at it is either how long it will be relevant as a tool, and how long people will keep the camera on average. In the old days, cameras were progressing so rapidly that that might have been a few years or maybe 5. Certainly 10 years would be adequate. Likewise, we THOUGHT that digital cameras couldn't possibly remain relevant longer than that, but I've kind have been surprised actually. Some older cameras have remained surprisingly useful. Even so 10 years seems adequate.

What about Leica though? Leica is all about making cameras so durable that I still have a working IIIf and 2 working M2s which will probably outlast me. Does that level of workmanship make sense? Well, not if the life of the camera is 10 years. For a 10 year lifespan, it seems to me that polycarbonate, plastic, and other materials makes more sense. My Minolta 600si is still perfect useable now and it's not made like a Leica. Would you buy a home computer made with Leica production values? Say an Dell PC made with a case that has an expected lifespan of 50 years? What would be the point? But Leica is still making cameras with the quality level they always have. Having trained Leica owners that Leicas are built to last stupid amounts of time, and having made even Leica digitals that way, and having made cameras good enough so that the M9 (with the proviso of its sensor) and the M8 so that they can still be used today, there is a sort of implicit promise that Leica digitals will be handled similarly to previous Leicas. It's why people pay $8000 for them, because they anticipate them being useful for ... well... a LONG time, longer than 10 years at least, maybe more like 20. 

So even if limiting repairs is perfectly reasonable for any company these days, if it's what everyone does, Having Leica do it might still be a shock for the Leica faithful. It's crazy to even think of something like this, but if you heard that Leica would tear the innards out of your M9 and put in a M10 sensor and internals (even though it would still end up fatter just because of the case) for some semi-reasonable price like $2500, would you be too shocked? If that happened, wouldn't it just be reinforcing the longevity they have been convincing us their cameras have for something like 80 years now? 

That said, having lived through my Kyocera/Yashica/Contax SLRs slowly giving up the ghost and becoming just pretty display items (simply because their electronics are unrepairable), I fully expect that ALL my Leica Ms (including my M10) will end up unrepairable long before my M2s do. If 2035 rolls around and you can't get your M10R repaired due to sensor replacement issues or back screen issues or unavailability of parts, is that going to be OK? How long do you believe your Leica M10 or M10R purchased today for $8000 or so should continue to work and be repairable in order for you to be satisfied.