HOW TO DO THE MINIMUM INVEST?

[panoreserve]

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vor 23 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

Or even better. Go the 2 lenses/bodies way : 
- Q2 with its excellent Summilux-Q for 28-35-50mm. 
- SL2 with APO-Summicron-SL 75mm (crop 112.5mm) or 90mm (crop 135mm)

They both share the same battery. You get a spare body and Q2 is around the same price as APO-SL 35mm. 

Valid points! But -at the end of the day- you can‘t put the Q2‘s 28mm on a level with the SL Apo 35mm... The SL 35 (as well as all SL Apo Summicrons) is the best of the best, the 28/1.7 is...(very) good. See Peter Karbe‘s latest video. - As a result I take my SL2 & 35/90 (supplemented by the upcoming SL 21 in 2021) for achieving the highest possible quality and the Q2 when I want a considerably more compact solution...on a nevertheless high quality level😉.

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[Jk1002]

I second the recommendation with the 24-90

Autofocus on 35 and 90 might be helpful but complementing your m setup with a zoom lens on the sl2 would open up aspects pf photography where the M is weak. Just use the ones you got via an adaptee.

Cheers

JK

[Mr.Q]

Yeah I don't own a M camera or SL2 currently but still own a few M lenses. If I were to get back into the system, I'd probably get the 24-90... maybe the Sigma 14-24 as well and call it a day.

[jrp]

The only problem with the 24-90 is that it makes photography for the likes of nerds like me boring. The quality is so good, that I don’t have to thing about optimal apertures, etc.  It is really a matter of point, zoom and shoot. From time to time it will be useful to have different, flawed, renderings, including wide apertures.  The M collection comes in handy then. 

[Mr.Q]

^ Yeah, that's what makes the SL/SL2 more appealing than the Lumix offerings.

[FMB]

The conclusion can be that the number of objetive reasons, even being objetives always are mediatized by personal tastes and individual physiology,  age, health and many other conditions  weigthing much more than a very logical decision. Personally I'm more motivated by the way as Panoraserve analyses my initial question than by other considerations  more practical and sure more in line with only a pure photographic resolution.

But the BEST CONCLUSION for me is that meanwhile posting in this Forum one has the unpayable opportunity to crop, (in the original meaning of the word), a lot of several photographic opinions, that  in relative terms are right  and above them one can take his decision.

[SJH]

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On 7/24/2020 at 9:58 PM, panoreserve said:

Valid points! But -at the end of the day- you can‘t put the Q2‘s 28mm on a level with the SL Apo 35mm... The SL 35 (as well as all SL Apo Summicrons) is the best of the best, the 28/1.7 is...(very) good. See Peter Karbe‘s latest video. - As a result I take my SL2 & 35/90 (supplemented by the upcoming SL 21 in 2021) for achieving the highest possible quality and the Q2 when I want a considerably more compact solution...on a nevertheless high quality level😉.

Very interesting, my take is that the Q2 at 735g is lighter than the SL 35 at 750g so I've yet to double up so to speak and get the SL 35. When I tend to shoot at 35mm it tends to be street, holiday etc so having a small setup with lets say 97% the same image quality as the SL35/SL2 combo makes sense for my use cases but of course everyone's mileage differs

[jaapv]

On 7/23/2020 at 8:51 PM, FMB said:

Hello,

Charles: APC-S could be an option but I'm a full format lover.

panoreserve: I'm afraid your ideal setup willl be the mine.!!!!

Jared: Thank you for your thoughts about my doubts,  my road wiill end up with the combo 35&90 because, as you say, I "see" better at 90 mm. above all if it is excellent.

Jeff:  The more rational and cheapest solution it's yours but i'm used since my several  M3, M4, M5, M7, M8, M9, M 240 and finally M10,  to change my lenses and work with a fixed frame,  although  the mind and my money would ask for the 24&90 zoom.

Then for me that's all, if you don't want to add anything.

Francisco.

If you are a full frame lover I find it hard to understand why you would embrace cropping, which is the equivalent of using a smaller sensor; a zoom lens would be the more obvious choice.

[Tailwagger]

I think if I had to do it all over again, I would not have bought the SL-35mm, nor the 16-35 Lumix, but rather the SVE 16-35mm instead. The 45mm Sigma is a low cost, light weight bridge to the SL-75. I also own the 135mm ART which is as good an optic as you'll find.  While you can zoom in, you can not zoom out. The 35mm is far too narrow on the wide end, at least for me. If its a two lens maximum and only Leica glass will do, the 16-35mm and SL-75mm would be a fine setup if you only wanted to carry two lenses.  You do give up speed and narrower DoF of the 35mm, but IBIS at least makes up for some of that loss.

[FMB]

17 hours ago, jaapv said:

If you are a full frame lover I find it hard to understand why you would embrace cropping, which is the equivalent of using a smaller sensor; a zoom lens would be the more obvious choice.

Please, read my post 18 (Friday 11:15 AM) is my explanation. You must understand "cropping" as a colateral  option of the rest of my personalized argumentation.

Francisco.

 

[jaapv]

Yes, IBIS can be an advantage in certain situations. Let's hope that the next generation of APS Leicas will offer it as well.

[Jared]

On 7/24/2020 at 2:15 AM, FMB said:

O.K. I feel I must to go deeper explaining my circunstances.

I'm 82 y.o. and have  been a user and follower of Leica M for 38 years then… I've a full collection of M lenses plus 100 mm macro R plus 180 mm Telyt R with an added handicap of my trembling hands. Suddenly appears the SL2 camera with "Ibis"  and I can take pictures 1/125 sec   without tripod, "the Heaven is opened": I can use all my M lenses and also is opened the possibility of  trying autofocus lenses.

After this short prolog may be all of you will understand part of my thoughts and ""my necessity? "" of cropping. Actually i dont need to cropp, all is if….given a photographic opportunity when I use that or other lens  I could take profit of a lot of megapixels.

Ahhh! Meanwhile I am trying to collect all the money I'll  need to buy one or more lenses I''ll have more time to decide which lens will be my predilect.

Sorry if after reading this lines you feel having lost your time or disappointed.  For me there has been a great opportunity to learn of your wise and experienced comments.

Francisco. 

Give us a little idea what you do with your photographs. Do you print them? At what sizes? Do you just look at them on a 4K monitor? Post them to Instagram? That will help determine whether cropping is totally fine or will be a serious hindrance.

Also, you mentioned your shaking hands and what a benefit you hope IBIS will be. Can you still handle larger lenses OK aside from the shaking? Is weight an issue?

Finally, how is your eyesight doing? Can you manually focus using a good EVF like that in the SL2 or would AF be beneficial?  Shooting anything moving like birds in flight? Or grandchildren?

The best system for you will depend on your answers. For example, the 90-280 is a phenomenal lens that will work better than a cropped 90mm if you rake lots of pictures at 135 and higher and want to make larger prints.  The in-lens OIS will do a better job paired with the IBIS than IBIS alone. But it is also a beast of a lens that I wouldn’t generally recommend to an 80 year old just because of size and weight. It is also expensive even by Leica SL standards.

The Summicron 35mm is one of the best lenses I have ever used, perhaps the best. But asking it to double as your 75mm might be a stretch if you are making large prints or if you want super narrow DOF for portraits. It would be equivalent to about a 12 megapixel 75mm f/4.  The megapixels would be fine for most uses, but not all. The f/4 focal ratio in terms of equivalent depth of field might be an issue, but at least the lens is so good optically there is no reason to stop down for contrast or resolution.

Since you have described your equipment and your physical situation, maybe a little more insight into your photography?

A lot of people have recommended the 24-90 as your one SL lens.  It’s a great zoom. Somehow, though, I have never been inspired by mine. I can’t tell you why. There is nothing wrong with it optically.  It is superb from 24mm to 75mm and just a bit less superb at 90mm. It focuses quickly and accurately. It’s large, of course, but depending on your needs it is certainly smaller than a bag full of primes. Somehow, though, I just don’t enjoy using it as much as my other lenses. On a trip to Patagonia a few years ago I agonized over whether to bring it and a WATE (the 16-35 wasn’t out yet) or to bring a bunch of M lenses instead. The 24-90 would probably have been the smarter choice due to auto focus, weather sealing, no need to change lenses in the high winds that are common in Patagonia, etc. What did I do? I took a bunch of M lenses instead and got some of the best images of my life. I can’t explain it, but I just don’t enjoy the 24-90. I love the other SL zooms, but not that one.

[FMB]

3 hours ago, Jared said:

Give us a little idea what you do with your photographs. Do you print them? At what sizes? Do you just look at them on a 4K monitor? Post them to Instagram? That will help determine whether cropping is totally fine or will be a serious hindrance.

Also, you mentioned your shaking hands and what a benefit you hope IBIS will be. Can you still handle larger lenses OK aside from the shaking? Is weight an issue?

Finally, how is your eyesight doing? Can you manually focus using a good EVF like that in the SL2 or would AF be beneficial?  Shooting anything moving like birds in flight? Or grandchildren?

The best system for you will depend on your answers. For example, the 90-280 is a phenomenal lens that will work better than a cropped 90mm if you rake lots of pictures at 135 and higher and want to make larger prints.  The in-lens OIS will do a better job paired with the IBIS than IBIS alone. But it is also a beast of a lens that I wouldn’t generally recommend to an 80 year old just because of size and weight. It is also expensive even by Leica SL standards.

The Summicron 35mm is one of the best lenses I have ever used, perhaps the best. But asking it to double as your 75mm might be a stretch if you are making large prints or if you want super narrow DOF for portraits. It would be equivalent to about a 12 megapixel 75mm f/4.  The megapixels would be fine for most uses, but not all. The f/4 focal ratio in terms of equivalent depth of field might be an issue, but at least the lens is so good optically there is no reason to stop down for contrast or resolution.

Since you have described your equipment and your physical situation, maybe a little more insight into your photography?

A lot of people have recommended the 24-90 as your one SL lens.  It’s a great zoom. Somehow, though, I have never been inspired by mine. I can’t tell you why. There is nothing wrong with it optically.  It is superb from 24mm to 75mm and just a bit less superb at 90mm. It focuses quickly and accurately. It’s large, of course, but depending on your needs it is certainly smaller than a bag full of primes. Somehow, though, I just don’t enjoy using it as much as my other lenses. On a trip to Patagonia a few years ago I agonized over whether to bring it and a WATE (the 16-35 wasn’t out yet) or to bring a bunch of M lenses instead. The 24-90 would probably have been the smarter choice due to auto focus, weather sealing, no need to change lenses in the high winds that are common in Patagonia, etc. What did I do? I took a bunch of M lenses instead and got some of the best images of my life. I can’t explain it, but I just don’t enjoy the 24-90. I love the other SL zooms, but not that one.

Jared, step by step:

- I print my photographs by my means, till A3Plus. My few best ones till 90 x 70 cms.

- I can look them in my TV Loewe 65. (4K)

- I’ve Gitzo 2542T tripod I frequently use because my trembling hands, even with my Summilux M Asph 35 mm.

- I hate Instagram and other influencers.

- I shoot anything or anyone that seems to me interesting and I emphasize “to me”. No determined targets.

- Yes, in several circumstances IBIS helps me.

- The worse problem is to focus, adding to my present eyesight my present shacking hands.

 

   I don’t know how old are you and others wanting to help me to take a decision. I admire your good will but take in account that my  personal level of thinking and doing, due to my “reality”, is far away of your reality as people in an age with a long future forward and may be, will be, if I say to you some day “I have done this… or that…” you will tell “as I have though, he  has taken a wrong decision” and also can be, that at the  same  time, I ware very happy with my wrong decision.

Francisco. (Sorry by my "English")

[Tailwagger]

I'm sure there are plenty of folks on this forum that would insist that you can comfortably print to A3Plus with an M9 (18MPx).  I regularly print my M10/240 24MPx output often cropped into the 20 to 21 MPx at that size.  I'd add that the Karbe Summicron are so incredibly good that interpolating for larger sizes from crops is fairly easy to do convincingly.  A while back I did a little experiment with this shot. I was in my car, the 75mm was the longest lens I had, and this was a close as I could get without trespassing.

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When I got home, I cropped to taste, the scaled 150% in PS up to ~17 MPx and this is what I walked away with. I'm sure I could have pushed it further, if there had been any real need. 

Hopefully this gives you some idea of what's possible... at least in 65 yo, not so shaky hands.  

 

 

[FMB]

Hello, Tailwagger,

thank you for your illustrative example of what I precisely intend. It shows that, in case we were in a situation that demanded it, we could go to moderately cut our image and still obtain a respectable quality, always closing the angle from the same vertex  has the focal used and taking advantage of the most interesting area of the image achieved.

I have never worked with zoom lenses, except with my WATE (16-18-21), which is a “fixed focus” with a similar quality in its three positions, although it can be used in intermediate areas. I would also use the equivalent SL zoom lens, since we are in both cases at the field of extremely wide angle focal lengths with a very uniform quality standard in all of them. 

I admit that I am a layman in the matter, even so I allow myself in my humble condition to give my opinion that the rest of the zoom lenses, in general and with few exceptions and always in my opinion, suffer, although they were of high quality, from two main defects: The first one  is that this quality is never uniform throughout all their focal lengths, since, with a single lens the diverging focal ends are always obtained with multi-optical final assembly that must neutralize the antagonistic requirements to converge in the sensor; and secondly, and as a direct consequence of compensating for physical problems, the apertures are not constant and affect exposure in the opposite direction to what were desirable with smaller wide apertures at longer focal lengths.

Please, zoom lovers, don’t kill me ! ! !           I ADMIT MAY BE I AM WRONG !

Francisco

[Jeff S]

Again, there is no right or wrong; always trade offs.  Buy what will make YOU happy.  Nobody else will likely ever know or care what gear you used.  All these choices are fully capable of superb pics with effective use.
 

Jeff

[Jared]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:13 PM, FMB said:

Jared, step by step:

- I print my photographs by my means, till A3Plus. My few best ones till 90 x 70 cms.

- I can look them in my TV Loewe 65. (4K)

- I’ve Gitzo 2542T tripod I frequently use because my trembling hands, even with my Summilux M Asph 35 mm.

- I hate Instagram and other influencers.

- I shoot anything or anyone that seems to me interesting and I emphasize “to me”. No determined targets.

- Yes, in several circumstances IBIS helps me.

- The worse problem is to focus, adding to my present eyesight my present shacking hands.

 

   I don’t know how old are you and others wanting to help me to take a decision. I admire your good will but take in account that my  personal level of thinking and doing, due to my “reality”, is far away of your reality as people in an age with a long future forward and may be, will be, if I say to you some day “I have done this… or that…” you will tell “as I have though, he  has taken a wrong decision” and also can be, that at the  same  time, I ware very happy with my wrong decision.

Francisco. (Sorry by my "English")

Thanks for this information—it helps.

To get good results at A3 Plus size in my experience you’d need somewhere around 20 megapixels in order to leave a little room for cropping to fit aspect ratios.  If you wanted to hit 300 pixels per inch in your printing without interpolation, closer to 30 megapixels, but in my experience a little bit of upsampling is not detectably harmful, so I’d say 20 megapixels.  Beyond that you are likely giving up a bit of image quality—perhaps enough to matter, depending on your personal requirements.

So, that would allow you to comfortably use a 35 m for duty as both a 35 and a 50, but I’d say you are pushing it a bit if you want it to crop the 35mm to 75mm and use it for head and shoulders shots.  The 35mm is a superb lens, but that’s asking a lot.

If you want to stick with two primes I’d say the 35mm and 75mm will effectively cover everything from 35mm to 105mm with image quality that is good enough for A3 plus at a very high standard.  If you don’t mind giving up the 75mm focal length in particular, you could go out to 135 instead of 105 by substituting the 90mm for the 75mm.

For the 4K monitor, my answer is surprisingly similar.  Approximately 3800 lines (4K) requires a bit over 20 megapixels.  Again, a 1.5 crop would be good, but a 2x crop would require some interpolation.

As to your last paragraph... I am trying to take into account the fact that priorities shift with age.  My father’s age is similar to yours (which should give you some idea of my own age), and I have tried to help him recently as he no longer felt comfortable taking a full frame camera on nature walks, particularly in the mountains near his house.  His concerns were primarily weight not the steadiness of his hands. We ended up choosing a 4/3” system for him despite the sacrifices in image quality particularly with low light.  It was necessary in order for him to continue enjoying photography. His continued enjoyment was, of course, the primary goal.

When you have 47 megapixels to play with, digital crops are absolutely fine for the uses you have identified. The Summicron SL’s are relatively light by SL standards.  Two of them in your bag would work well. I’d personally recommend the 35mm and 75mm over the 35mm and 90mm, but I don’t know how often you need high quality results above 105mm.  

 

[FMB]

Very grateful by the full content of your post, JARED. I think it could be defined as the best resume of all the thread.

As you say I’m asking from my tools more than really should but also you must recognize that this behavior is very usual in a big proportion of those fans of Leica brand; we are always looking for to own the  excellence because we never give up so that the day arrives  we will succeed  in achieve the photography of our life, the Best One!

At least I’m happy for not to have done in my initial proposal a crazy theory with two very good lenses (SC SL 35 + SC SL 90) to cover a range of four with a good standard of high quality. May be more than needed.

About my hands I could say that since the day I put my cameras over the Leica small ball head + table tripod and on my chest I won a big battle against shaking, even with the weight of the cameras & lenses. May be this could help your father’s troubles. Please, give my regards to him as both of us are more or less in the same do.

Francisco

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[FMB]

Camera with table tripod on chest

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[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, FMB said:

Camera with table tripod on chest

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Here’s a strap technique that might avoid the tripod, thanks to our old friend Lars (who used to call himself ‘ the old man...’)...

 

Jeff