sdai Posted August 15, 2007 Share #41 Posted August 15, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now whether this is possible to achieve with R-system quality at an R-system price tag, I don’t know, but the DMR seems to suggest that it isn’t impossible. On the other hand, a somewhat less modular solution would certainly be less costly and also be more compact. Forget about price tag ... that's the last thing a true Leica aficionado will ever care about. LOL Now, from the information I gathered from the Steven K Lee interview published in LFI, he seems to imply that the R10 will be about the same form factor/size as the current R9 film body alone, now we all know one of the major reasons why DMR wasn't made FF is due to the physical restriction inside the existing R9 body .. now if Leica design a "body" as platform from ground up to host a brigade of detachable peripherals, remove the film transport and rails etc ... this certainly is possible. If Leica seriously wants to keep costs down for some people I do have some ideas, make an optional back with only 8 Bit DNG or disable the backward compatibility for legacy R lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 15, 2007 Posted August 15, 2007 Hi sdai, Take a look here Is R10 or a brand new Digital-R coming ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted August 15, 2007 Share #42 Posted August 15, 2007 Now, from the information I gathered from the Steven K Lee interview published in LFI, he seems to imply that the R10 will be about the same form factor/size as the current R9 film body alone, now we all know one of the major reasons why DMR wasn't made FF is due to the physical restriction inside the existing R9 body .. now if Leica design a "body" as platform from ground up to host a brigade of detachable peripherals, remove the film transport and rails etc ... this certainly is possible. Yes, in order to keep the compatibility with film, the DMR’s sensor had to fit within the 36 x 24 mm frame, and the light-sensitive area had to be smaller. Therefore, a 36 x 24 mm sensor was out of the question. The R10 could be equipped with a FF sensor, even when there are still valid reasons not to go the FF route. Suitable sensors are hard to come by (maybe Dalsa – I don’t know about the quality of their FF sensors) and still expensive – expensive even by Leica standards. Also, FF sensors have problems of their own, which one may or may not accept. Designing a camera the size of the R9 maybe the goal, but the flange distance is fixed and the combined depth of sensor and LCD will neceessarily exceed that of a film back – at least with regard to depth, there isn’t much you can shave off. Height is a different matter, as is width. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 15, 2007 Share #43 Posted August 15, 2007 Yes, in order to keep the compatibility with film, the DMR’s sensor had to fit within the 36 x 24 mm frame, and the light-sensitive area had to be smaller. Therefore, a 36 x 24 mm sensor was out of the question. The R10 could be equipped with a FF sensor, even when there are still valid reasons not to go the FF route. Suitable sensors are hard to come by (maybe Dalsa – I don’t know about the quality of their FF sensors) and still expensive – expensive even by Leica standards. Also, FF sensors have problems of their own, which one may or may not accept. DALSA is great, Michael. They're here in Waterloo, Canada ... just one and a half hours drive from my place. Leaf backs all use their sensors ... ZD also use their sensors, you've probably heard about the digital cinema thing ORIGIN, that's DALSA too! DALSA Digital Cinema - Origin® I have their phone numbers ... let me give them a call. LOL I know a little bit about the deal between them and Mamiya if Leica wants some help they can pm me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 15, 2007 Share #44 Posted August 15, 2007 Just looked up their catalogue, there's actually a 36x24 sensor FTF5033C ... 17 MP. 7.2µm pixel pitch ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsolomon Posted August 15, 2007 Share #45 Posted August 15, 2007 Carsten: Is leica ever really going to take advantage of the Rom contacts? Rom contacts have turned out be nothing more then a (VERY) minor advantage in certain conditions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted August 15, 2007 Share #46 Posted August 15, 2007 Carsten:Is leica ever really going to take advantage of the Rom contacts? Rom contacts have turned out be nothing more then a (VERY) minor advantage in certain conditions ROM contacts are used by the DMR to avoid cyan drift with wide-angles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 15, 2007 Share #47 Posted August 15, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) As Pascal said, the DMR can compensate for vignetting and colour shifts by knowing about the lens through the ROM. The ROM contacts can also allow the camera to insert correct lens information in the EXIF. I presume and hope that Leica will allow both of these to continue working in the R10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 16, 2007 Share #48 Posted August 16, 2007 DALSA is great, Michael. They're here in Waterloo, Canada ... just one and a half hours drive from my place. Leaf backs all use their sensors ... ZD also use their sensors, you've probably heard about the digital cinema thing ORIGIN, that's DALSA too! The Contax N Digital had a FF sensor from Dalsa (well, Philips actually, because it wasn’t yet Dalsa then) and that one was awful. Of course, they may have improved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telyt Posted August 16, 2007 Share #49 Posted August 16, 2007 What about the new Kodak sensor with extended low-noise sensetivity? It's due out about the same time the R10 is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 16, 2007 Share #50 Posted August 16, 2007 The Contax N Digital had a FF sensor from Dalsa (well, Philips actually, because it wasn’t yet Dalsa then) and that one was awful. Of course, they may have improved. I agree, the N digital is a premature product not only plagued by its low performance sensor but also surrounding electronics, and most importantly ... the awful processing software engine. I've just finished my paperwork for today and took some time to look at the data sheet of FTF5033C which was just introduced in April, 2007, very good linear dynamic range, low readout noise, excellent antiblooming, mirrored and split readout, perfectly matched to visual spectrum are all major characteristic mentioned ... sounds very promising IMO. Kodak doesn't have a 3:2 sensor in the 16-18MP range for 35mm cameras (yet). Eindhoven is quite close to Solms, perhaps Leica's engineers have started testing for quite some time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijporter Posted August 17, 2007 Share #51 Posted August 17, 2007 I've just been to our local Leica dealer who had just received a visit form a rep. from Germany. The dealer was told that the R10 will have a full-sized sensor of 40Mp that can produce a 250 Mb file size. The camera will have autofocus capacity for a new range of R-lenses but will be fully compatable with existing R-lenses. It is scheduled for presentation at Photokina 2008 and for production release in 2009. If the dealer was 'pulling my leg' he did it very well! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 17, 2007 Share #52 Posted August 17, 2007 Is anyone making, or planning to make, a 40Mpx FF sensor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 17, 2007 Share #53 Posted August 17, 2007 ...the R10 will have a full-sized sensor of 40Mp that can produce a 250 Mb file size... After sharpness mania and cleanliness disorder here comes the wallpaper obsession. HCB must be turning over in his grave... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted August 17, 2007 Author Share #54 Posted August 17, 2007 M8's 10Mpx CCD is producing 10MB 'lossless' DNG files. How come a 40Mpx sensor will come up with 250MB file, native TIFF? Come on, the TB hard drive will need an upgrade again !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijporter Posted August 17, 2007 Share #55 Posted August 17, 2007 I don't know the answer to that - I'm just passing on what I was told; however I'd expect a FF 40Mpx sensor to produce a file size larger than 1Mb per Mpx Needless to say, the techno-boffins will have some helpful insights into the possibilities of such figures! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted August 17, 2007 Share #56 Posted August 17, 2007 40MP medium format backs sell for $30,000. A 40MP 24x36 sensor that could sell for the price of a 135 DSLR? that sounds like a real stretch. It would be incredible if they managed 16MP and full frame, 22MP would be close to a miracle. Canon's new top of the line is rumored to be 22MP that I would think is the upper limit in the short term. I don't know how many 35mm photographers would be willing to pay for that much resolution. You are well into medium format territory at those sizes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 17, 2007 Share #57 Posted August 17, 2007 You are well into medium format territory at those sizes. MF resolution and P&S noise <grin> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjöbjörn Posted August 17, 2007 Share #58 Posted August 17, 2007 i think the point is that a modular system would not meet leica's objectives of cost & quality - NOT that it could not be acheived Doesn't the Hassy H3D cost quite a bit more then the going rate for leica's either M or R bodies ? BTW: my post should not be interperted to mean lenses and viewfinders would not be interchngeable on the R10.....i was referencing " digital backs" Well, just thinking about a modular system, I thinkt it would even be interesting, if it was constructed modular in a way that an easy upgrade is possible to be done not by the owner of the camera but, e.g. at Leica. This would mean a camera that is prepared to be upgraded easily when send in, e.g. with a new and better sensor and processor, when available, without needing to change the whole camera. (I am of course not sure if this works commercially, but it would be a bit Leica-like, i.e. making the product like an R10 living longer. It should also be a bit more environmentally friendly which would not be to bad) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 17, 2007 Share #59 Posted August 17, 2007 It is inconceivable that the rest of the camera industry is slugging along around 10-14 MP and that Kodak or some other supplier could suddenly supply a 40MP 35mm FF sensor to Leica at affordable prices. The technology, although still improving, is too stable for such an improvement. I think however that a FF 14MP sensor would make a lot of sense, and even be feasible. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the chain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicar7 Posted August 17, 2007 Share #60 Posted August 17, 2007 40 MP in a FF size has to be near the limits of physical possibility for photons to reach electronics and for electronics to register with any meaningfulness the information. One thing that makes the image quality of the DMR and M8 so high is the somewhat larger than other brands' pixel sizes that allow more reliable photon capture and help the software deal with low light and control noise. 40 MP seems to me to require quite a few more technical breakthroughs than simply piling on the needfully tinier and tinier pixels. Just my 2 cents worth, since I am clueless on electronics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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