M10 Monochrom question

[Jenningsmca]

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I am curious, how does the output of the SL2 with Monochrom set in profiles producing a jpeg compare the out output of the M10 Monochrom.

The only reason I ask as I have been using a SL for quite some time and there is so much to like about its handling and optical viewfinder the newer SL2 would be similar. But when I picked up the M10 it feels so foreign and odd that I may think I might not be able to enjoy it as much as the SL line. 

This question comes from the fact that I am really starting to dig b+w photography and the tomes produced by the M10 are beautiful. Can I get similar results with the SL2 ?

 

MJ

[FlashGordonPhotography]

The SL2 make great B&W files with incredible flexibility in post but I don't think they're the same as my M10M. I'm new to the Monochrom and it still takes me longer to get a result I like without just dragging the colour sliders but the tones end up somewhere I can't get with the SL2. It's really hard to describe what that difference is. It's subtle.

Mostly I got the M10M for the workflow of shooting in mono and how that affects the way I see but the more I use it the more I appreciate the subtle differences in tonal information.

Short answer: Both beautiful but subtly different.

Gordon

[Jeff S]

There is no single Monochrom rendering (any of the models), nor is there one SL2 potential rendering, when shooting DNG, which is my only approach.  Shooting JPEG is wasted, for me. 

Like Gordon, the most significant benefit for me with a Monochrom (MM1) is the experience of an all-b/w shooting and processing workflow. Print results, regardless of camera, which also include an SL2 and M10, depend largely on me.   The M10 Monochrom will undoubtedly provide greater flexibility for high ISO shooting or for circumstances where effectively higher resolution allows greater  print size (and close viewing) or cropping capability.  I don’t shoot extremely high ISO, nor print big enough, to  warrant a switch.  Processing and printing are not ‘plug and play’; it requires learning and judgment, just like shooting, film or digital.

Jeff

Edited May 23, 2020 by Jeff S

[Guest BlackBarn]

6 hours ago, Jenningsmca said:

Can I get similar results with the SL2 ?

 

I’m going through the same thought process. I shoot jpeg b/w 95% of the time on my SL and will be keeping it. Although  I don’t see the need to upgrade to the SL2 I am attracted to the Monochrome and the M10M. So like you - without hiring one which is not possible yet in NZ - I am interest in the image quality difference when using a M10M with the appropriate colour filters and when printed. This would  also be the first time on a M system,  I don’t see learning a new system a problem if the benefits are demonstrable. Learning  Is all about wanting to and  continually trying ‘ trying is the engine and failure it’s fuel’ type of thing. 

I’m an artists and currently  use photography as another form of sketch book and also thinking about including  photography in my exhibitions once I become more proficient. Part of my work is drawing with pencil and charcoal in b/w and so visually I’m sensitive to the value  transitions and tonal range, so having a Mono would not make me see any differently, which is one of those things often  mentioned as a benefit. 

 Accepting that online photos are compressed I still struggle to notice a differences between B/W taken on a SL or say a M10p and a M10M. I wish the difference were more obvious but I can’t see it. Hopefully I will have the opportunity to rent a M10M in future  but currently the common thread has more to do with the photographic experience than the photograph and maybe that is all that matters..................well.....I hope not.

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

 

I’m going through the same thought process. I shoot jpeg b/w 95% of the time on my SL and will be keeping it. Although  I don’t see the need to upgrade to the SL2 I am attracted to the Monochrome and the M10M. So like you - without hiring one which is not possible yet in NZ - I am interest in the image quality difference when using a M10M with the appropriate colour filters and when printed. This would  also be the first time on a M system,  I don’t see learning a new system a problem if the benefits are demonstrable. Learning  Is all about wanting to and  continually trying ‘ trying is the engine and failure it’s fuel’ type of thing. 

I’m an artists and currently  use photography as another form of sketch book and also thinking about including  photography in my exhibitions once I become more proficient. Part of my work is drawing with pencil and charcoal in b/w and so visually I’m sensitive to the value  transitions and tonal range, so having a Mono would not make me see any differently, which is one of those things often  mentioned as a benefit. 

 Accepting that online photos are compressed I still struggle to notice a differences between B/W taken on a SL or say a M10p and a M10M. I wish the difference were more obvious but I can’t see it. Hopefully I will have the opportunity to rent a M10M in future  but currently the common thread has more to do with the photographic experience than the photograph and maybe that is all that matters..................well.....I hope not.

I would think that as an artist, presumably wanting total control of photographic output, you would shoot RAW (DNG), and of course print on a compatible paper. 

I also downplayed, even dismissed, any benefit from an all-b/w digital workflow, especially given my experience shooting and seeing in b/w since the 70’s (and M shooting since the 80’s). That is, until I actually used the Monochrom. Rejecting any possibility of color had an unanticipated impact.  The trade off for me is the inability to use color channels in PP, which can’t be replicated by use of color lens filters.  Can’t have it all.

Jeff

 

[Tailwagger]

Apologies if you all ready considered all this, but I take it, from "the M10 it feels so foreign and odd " you don't own any Ms and therefore likely no M optics as well. If you've just starting to dig into B&W, before investing a rather substantial amount of cash, it's probably worthwhile spending a bit more time with the SL to see how satisfied you are with the results you can pull out of it via color conversion. Consider, if you haven't already, investing in processing software specifically for B&W conversion, Nik for example. If this is coming up as you're already on a path which has you considering an SL2 and are wondering if an M10M might be a better compliment to what you already have, it's important to consider that a camera body is only the tip of the iceberg.

Assuming you don't already own any M optics for your SL, building a second system around an M10M opens up a whole new can of worms around which optics to acquire.  How much time and money are you really willing to fork over if your only use case is for B&W?  An M10M may make sense for folks already invested in the M system, but for those that aren't, beyond the expense, there's a not insignificant learning curve in terms of figuring out which lenses are the right ones to generate the tonality you prefer.  A lot of what you may perceive around the tonal advantage from the 10M is not only down to the sensor, but the optics employed as well. As one who regularly shoots B&W with an M10 and SL2 side by side, I'd assert that there is distinct difference in look between the two that comes more down to the optics than the sensor differences. Regardless, adding any new system raises a number of issues. Given the investment in an M system, monochrom or otherwise, is a substantial one once optics, batteries, add-on evfs, etc are taken into account, its worth doing a lot of homework before jumping in.

[Guest BlackBarn]

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7 hours ago, Jenningsmca said:

9 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I would think that as an artist, presumably wanting total control of photographic output, you would shoot RAW (DNG)

 

Absolutely right Jeff, that’s the reason for considering the M10M to improve on the quality of my B/W photos with the objective of exploring the  potential to include  them with my other exhibition work ......but a lot of learning to do first.

At the moment I shoot  b/w JPEG as the study and make adjustments with the charcoal on paper as I can add, subtract and refine whatever. Computer post processing would be quite limiting for those purposes.

What I find valuable with some Leica lenses - say the .95 - it that it interprets and  records light shapes differently to me therefore extending my creative options. What I was hoping , especially with the M10M, monochrome, was that it would offer more visually obvious refined tonal range and value transitions than the current crop of cameras so that the photos I take for exhibition would have the potential for that something extra. I  appreciate your point re the ‘unanticipated impact’ and certainly  reducing post processing possibilities would focus the mind and eye but does it explain why the b/w photos shot on say a M10p look similar as those shot on the M10M....or.....is it that when you actually compare the printed photo the difference is obvious?

[Jeff S]

BlackBarn, I would recommend that you first explore the potential of shooting and processing DNG b/w conversions with your SL. No need to add more variables at this point, not the least of which is deciding if you like the M experience, let alone the cost.  There is enormous potential for b/w rendering options using the SL, once you become proficient with PP techniques, presuming you apply good judgment to determine when, where and to what degree to apply those techniques.

You determine how your prints look, to a significant degree, regardless of camera used.  I can get similar results from my MM, M10 and SL2 if I try hard to match results, but that’s never my objective, which is to make a print that does justice to my picture interpretation.  There are myriad ways to interpret a scene, and many workflows to get there; otherwise we’d each produce the same results with any given gear.  That’s where the artistry comes in.

For screen viewing only, a camera phone does a reasonable job.

Jeff

 

[Jenningsmca]

Went for a ride yesterday and took the SL + 35 Summilux. Even thought I missed focus on my wife a bit the image looks good in b+w, got excited and forgot that it was at f/1.4, but its a keeper anyway.

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[T25UFO]

I think this is more about the type of camera you like to use, rather than choosing a B&W only camera or doing B&W conversions.  

I speak as someone who has been a Leica user for many years, during which time I ran the R6.2 alongside my M6 and more recently the SL alongside my M9 (and now M10).  I sold the R and the SL simply because I prefer the rangefinder.  But if you really like the (D)SLR or Mirrorless approach, then you will probably take better photographs with these cameras.

You don't need a Monochrom camera to take good B&W photos.  I have some excellent B&W conversions from my SL and processed in SilverFX Pro.  But if you really like rangefinder photography then the Monochrom (any version) is the way to go.  I have the M10M and, for me, it is the best camera I have ever owned; but you don't need to spend this much.  You can try the M246 (new deals now appearing) or just go with a used M9M.  

If you like the M9M then the trade up to M10M won't be too painful; if you don't like it, just sell it on with little or no loss.  You might even be able to pick up a refurbished M9M from Wetzlar if you're quick.  See this link:

http://www.slack.co.uk/m9-for-ccd-lovers.html

And a long thread in the M9 section of this forum:

 

[ajmarton1]

The Leica store (at least in Los Angeles) will let you demo an M10M for like an hour.  You should try it out if the body is available. The sensor is quite different on the M10M and I find that it’s hard to replicate the creamy sharp detailed tones without a lot of work with other bodies. The joy I get when I pick up the M10M after not using it for a while and shoot is just truly amazing.   

[Jenningsmca]

I dont think we have the same opportunity here in Toronto to try equipment. Since i wear glasses i think what makes me excel at manual focus is the ability to zoom in while focusing. This is quite easily done on the SL. Will have to handle a M10 Monochrom before committing to a m line camera. 
 

mj

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Jenningsmca said:

I dont think we have the same opportunity here in Toronto to try equipment. Since i wear glasses i think what makes me excel at manual focus is the ability to zoom in while focusing. This is quite easily done on the SL. Will have to handle a M10 Monochrom before committing to a m line camera. 
 

mj

Depends in part on your vision and eyeglass correction, for both astigmatism and distance.  The focus patch is set at a virtual distance of 2m (with -.5 diopter built in to VF). Even with my glasses on, focusing is further optimized with a +.5 diopter, due to my aging eyes. Testing an M can be easy... or not. One can also use the auxiliary EVF to provide focus aid, but for me an M is a RF tool.

Jeff

[trickness]

I have a book full of b&w conversions (from Silver FX) I’ve done from shots taken on the SL and I doubt there’s anyone on the planet who could look at any of them and consistently identify what Leica they were taken with. The main reason for buying an M, or the Monocrom, is the experience of shooting with it. There is absolutely nothing like it and you get into a certain mentality when using it.

I for one think the idea having to buy multiple lenses for an M is counterproductive. Take a look at what Peter Turnley has been doing with his M and a 35 1.4 in New York with his quarantine series - just one camera and one lens and he’s producing images with incredible emotional and artistic depth. It’s about connecting with the moment and connecting with the world around you. Would it be nice to have a Noctilux and a whole range of M lenses and a nice shiny new monocrom? Sure. But none of that is going to make you take better pictures. And to drop $8500 for a body of a camera that will give you b&w images with “subtle” differences than an SL won’t either.

I think most of us buy these things because we enjoy them, and we are looking for validation of our purchase decisions from others, and that’s fine. I really want the new monochrom, not because it will give me “better” photos than the SL, but because it is a different shooting experience. Do I NEED a new Monocrom?
 

Absolutely not.

[Guest BlackBarn]

4 hours ago, trickness said:

Take a look at what Peter Turnley has been doing

Thanks for introducing me to Peter Turnley’s work and as a byproduct,  his philosophy on being a photographer which says it all.

Although dating to 2013 and in relation to his PP,  I found this article interesting. He also mentioned he used at the time a M9, MM and in his videos mentioned other Leica cameras along with the 28mm and 35mm. Just making the point of his awareness of differences in cameras and lenses.

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2013/10/digital-file-to-silver-gelatin-print.html

Anyway....I haven’t yet found the paint brush which can make me paint like Rembrandt because there is no short cut to acquiring his craft and I think the same  way about the best photography. Nobody will find a camera which can help them take photos like Peter Turnley but I wonder how much of his hard fought craft is now seen as unnecessary due to PP by the ‘most’.

Has an over reliance on fixing it and the creative opportunities of PP software dulled the eye and diluted the value of experience -  the feeling of being out there replaced by the comfy chair and mistaking it for the learning arena.   How far away are we from ‘consistently identify what Leica they were taken with‘ to  ‘consistently identify what camera using any lens they were taken with’? 

or......Is there still relevance in the intellectual and manufacturing pursuit of improving the quality and performance of cameras and lenses because there is a stage  of craft within photography where it matters?  If that is the case, then your ‘absolutely  not’  should  become a ‘ may be’ because more often than not, a more capable tool encourages learning.

(as an aside. I have been very critical of street photography because of the methods some use......stealth/put the camera in your face crowd..... Peter Turnley is the first photographer - I know - by his inclusiveness has raised the vernacular to an art form of story telling)

 

[soccerrick10]

There is a very good comparison of the three Monochroms and SL2 converted to black and white here:

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/#comment-265675

If you are looking for ultimate low light black and white, go M10M.  But have a read.  It’s from the guys at Leica Miami and is pretty candid including their surprise at the lower performance of the SL2.  But again, if it’s good light conversions, I’ve seen it’s very close.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, soccerrick10 said:

If you are looking for ultimate low light black and white, go M10M.  But have a read.  It’s from the guys at Leica Miami and is pretty candid including their surprise at the lower performance of the SL2.  But again, if it’s good light conversions, I’ve seen it’s very close.

Up to 6400, the SL2 showed better resolution and detail. Personally, I have no need to shoot any higher ISO, which was the central issue tested, nor would I feel limited on resolution, detail or hardly any other IQ parameter (other than the obvious color/b&w differences) with these fine options. But, to each his/her own.

Jeff

[Erato]

Canvas, pigments, and paintbrushes are the inseparable reality and soul mates for painters just like the camera systems for a motivated photographer. Well, there's a very important concept is optimization, especially when you realized that there's a slight difference between each batch of M-Lenses if you can read the secret code hallmark beside the infinity(15, 16, 22, or no secret code on the 50 Cron AA). 

In other words, as for an agile rangefinder camera, M10 Monochrom and APO series would be the best fit if you're going to focus on the Black and White artwork production and printing. 

 

Once you noticed that most of the museums only use Schmincke for restoration works, then it would be much easier for you to aware that it can't just be simplified to choose a combination of camera plus lenses. 

For instance, there's plenty of choice of Acrylic, Watercolors, Oil Colors for artists, in addition to representing pigments, binders, and different media or additives, the structure of the entire artwork is not limited to canvas, paper or pigment at all. 

Sometimes, an artist may simply just use the Rohres Ausziehtusche Bister or carbon pen as a creative tool against his/her masterpiece.

I booked an M10 Monochrom in March and I realized that it might be hard for me to get it to feeds my foolish mind and hunger eyes timely due to the COVID-19.

M10-P was not on my radar at that moment, they told me that it won't be fast and easy to get it for me, and eventually, I took the suggestion from Leica Store agent and the M10-P become my reality.

 

I appease myself that I should be thankful due to the pandemic of COVID-19, the scenario might be even worse and making shipment unpredictable. 

And if I choose to wait for the M10 Monochrom, I might experience the Pre-War II and Post-War pain points and it would be hard to get perfect gear due to the supply chain issue revealed by the CEO of Leica AG.

A voice from the deepest part of my heart is calling, I would make the very best use of the existing M-System before I can get the M10 Monochrom plus 50 Cron APO. And I should be grateful that I found an alternated combination which is also great enough and relatively cheaper solution fulfills my enthusiasm.

If you are lucky enough to find an M10 sitting in the Leica Store, don't hesitate, just enjoy it.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Erato

[Photoworks]

20 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

Thanks for introducing me to Peter Turnley’s work and as a byproduct,  his philosophy on being a photographer which says it all.

Although dating to 2013 and in relation to his PP,  I found this article interesting. He also mentioned he used at the time a M9, MM and in his videos mentioned other Leica cameras along with the 28mm and 35mm. Just making the point of his awareness of differences in cameras and lenses.

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2013/10/digital-file-to-silver-gelatin-print.html

Anyway....I haven’t yet found the paint brush which can make me paint like Rembrandt because there is no short cut to acquiring his craft and I think the same  way about the best photography. Nobody will find a camera which can help them take photos like Peter Turnley but I wonder how much of his hard fought craft is now seen as unnecessary due to PP by the ‘most’.

Has an over reliance on fixing it and the creative opportunities of PP software dulled the eye and diluted the value of experience -  the feeling of being out there replaced by the comfy chair and mistaking it for the learning arena.   How far away are we from ‘consistently identify what Leica they were taken with‘ to  ‘consistently identify what camera using any lens they were taken with’? 

or......Is there still relevance in the intellectual and manufacturing pursuit of improving the quality and performance of cameras and lenses because there is a stage  of craft within photography where it matters?  If that is the case, then your ‘absolutely  not’  should  become a ‘ may be’ because more often than not, a more capable tool encourages learning.

(as an aside. I have been very critical of street photography because of the methods some use......stealth/put the camera in your face crowd..... Peter Turnley is the first photographer - I know - by his inclusiveness has raised the vernacular to an art form of story telling)

 

To you point with Peter, sure he has a 35mm, but he does heavy cropping some time.

I was shooting Shannone with a 50mm when Peter come right next to me with and shot this photo. Nothing wrong with that, just saying he could have done it with any other lens, considering the M minimum focusing  distance, cropping is probably necessary.

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[Jeff S]

20 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

(as an aside. I have been very critical of street photography because of the methods some use......stealth/put the camera in your face crowd..... Peter Turnley is the first photographer - I know - by his inclusiveness has raised the vernacular to an art form of story telling)

 

His twin brother, David, has won the Pulitzer Prize, the Robert Capa Award, etc, and shares a common philosophy of empathy and caring for subject that comes across in his/their work...

https://petapixel.com/2014/11/09/pulitzer-winning-photographer-david-turnleys-advice-class-photojournalism-students/

History is full of photographers who told stories with their cameras on ‘the streets’... Helen Levitt, Robert Frank, Walker Evans, Brassai, Andre Kertesz, Josef Koudelka, and dozens of others, as well as those who used a  more ‘in the face’ approach at times... Winogrand, et al.  The same diversity is true if you look around today, although some have taken the ‘in your face’ approach to extremes, or seemingly have no story to tell.

Jeff