First batch MP...?

[_chris_lawrence]

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Hi everyone,

Recently Leica published a promotional video shot in Hong Kong of a collector of Leica cameras. One of his two prized cameras is an MP used by Magnum photographer Stuart Franklin. He added that it was from the first batch of MP's produced, in 2003.

I just purchased a used MP in great condition recently, and after seeing this became curious of when mine was actually produced. After checking... my MP with serial number 2889XXX is apparently from the very first batch produced in 2002, just after the MP-6 which was for Japan only.

I don't have much knowledge on what's considered "special" or ordinary by Leica terms or collector terms, but was just curious if anyone else had anything to chime in. Was this a stroke of a luck? Either way it doesn't change how I appreciate the camera, but thought it was ironic to find this out.

Best,
C

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[250swb]

It isn't so special, mine is 2880XXX so yours is almost new 😄

And well done, I think you did right though to get the early one, although there is the issue with the poor dust seal in the viewfinder windows but that can be sorted in a service, or maybe it has already? But the ISO/DIN dial on the back is nicer to use and I haven't had a problem (other than a bit of dust, now sorted) since I bought it new. I'd actually forgotten that I'd told my local Leica dealer to put me on the list for the MP, so when they rang I unexpectedly got one of the first in the UK. I know you'll see complaints about the build quality of current Leica film cameras, and a few are true, even if the myth surrounding poor quality control is exaggerated, but you can't beat one of the original series.

[Chuck Albertson]

I bought one new in 2003, with S/N 2880XXX. It has the "old" film speed dial of the M6 on the back. I had it in the shop once when the film speed dial jammed at ISO 3200, and in again for a CLA about 10 years ago - overhead baggage bins are not kind to mechanical cameras. If you're changing the film speed, I've found it to be good practice to run the speed dial through the full range first, to dislodge any dust on the contacts and to scrub off any corrosion on the contacts (they're gold, so that is an infrequent occurrence).

[romualdo]

Here's the very end of camera serial numbers in Laney (2nd edn, publ 2005) - ceased at 2002

looks like there were three batches in 2002 - wonder how accurate this is. My MP comes from the third batch 28901XX

1. 2880101-2881100 (999) - could this first batch be the MP-6? (BTW, there is no MP-6 in the list). Just found #28802XX online & it is indeed an MP-6

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/11/the-leica-mp-6/

The above article states that between 250 to 400 were made, so that would leave a further 600 plus that were probably MPs ?? just conjecture here

2. 2889101-2890100 (999) so, this must be the first batch of non MP-6 MPs (maybe not, based on the number of MP-6 that were produced in the first batch)

3. 2890101-2891100 (999)

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Edited May 9, 2020 by romualdo

[250swb]

5 hours ago, romualdo said:

Here's the very end of camera serial numbers in Laney (2nd edn, publ 2005) - ceased at 2002

looks like there were three batches in 2002 - wonder how accurate this is. My MP comes from the third batch 28901XX

1. 2880101-2881100 (999) - could this first batch be the MP-6? (BTW, there is no MP-6 in the list). Just found #28802XX online & it is indeed an MP-6

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/11/the-leica-mp-6/

The above article states that between 250 to 400 were made, so that would leave a further 600 plus that were probably MPs ?? just conjecture here

2. 2889101-2890100 (999) so, this must be the first batch of non MP-6 MPs (maybe not, based on the number of MP-6 that were produced in the first batch)

3. 2890101-2891100 (999)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks, mine was definitely built in 2002 then, but I don't think they started hitting the shops until well into 2003. In the UK at least mine is the first batch and the first my Leica dealer had but according to the receipt I purchased it at the very end of March 2003. 

[romualdo]

28 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Thanks, mine was definitely built in 2002 then, but I don't think they started hitting the shops until well into 2003. In the UK at least mine is the first batch and the first my Leica dealer had but according to the receipt I purchased it at the very end of March 2003. 

so it looks like the very first batch 2880101-2881100 (999) contains both MP-6s & MPs

[_chris_lawrence]

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12 hours ago, 250swb said:

It isn't so special, mine is 2880XXX so yours is almost new 😄

And well done, I think you did right though to get the early one, although there is the issue with the poor dust seal in the viewfinder windows but that can be sorted in a service, or maybe it has already? But the ISO/DIN dial on the back is nicer to use and I haven't had a problem (other than a bit of dust, now sorted) since I bought it new. I'd actually forgotten that I'd told my local Leica dealer to put me on the list for the MP, so when they rang I unexpectedly got one of the first in the UK. I know you'll see complaints about the build quality of current Leica film cameras, and a few are true, even if the myth surrounding poor quality control is exaggerated, but you can't beat one of the original series.

Thanks for the tips! I heard about the dust seal. I'll send mine off for a CLA in the near future hopefully Nice to hear from others who have an MP from the first batch or batches too.

[_chris_lawrence]

8 hours ago, romualdo said:

Here's the very end of camera serial numbers in Laney (2nd edn, publ 2005) - ceased at 2002

looks like there were three batches in 2002 - wonder how accurate this is. My MP comes from the third batch 28901XX

1. 2880101-2881100 (999) - could this first batch be the MP-6? (BTW, there is no MP-6 in the list). Just found #28802XX online & it is indeed an MP-6

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/11/the-leica-mp-6/

The above article states that between 250 to 400 were made, so that would leave a further 600 plus that were probably MPs ?? just conjecture here

2. 2889101-2890100 (999) so, this must be the first batch of non MP-6 MPs (maybe not, based on the number of MP-6 that were produced in the first batch)

3. 2890101-2891100 (999)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Very interesting to see; thanks for sharing this! Appears mine's from the second batch. Pretty fun to see when your camera was brought to life

[_chris_lawrence]

9 hours ago, Chuck Albertson said:

I bought one new in 2003, with S/N 2880XXX. It has the "old" film speed dial of the M6 on the back. I had it in the shop once when the film speed dial jammed at ISO 3200, and in again for a CLA about 10 years ago - overhead baggage bins are not kind to mechanical cameras. If you're changing the film speed, I've found it to be good practice to run the speed dial through the full range first, to dislodge any dust on the contacts and to scrub off any corrosion on the contacts (they're gold, so that is an infrequent occurrence).

As soon as I read this, I did a full cycle back and forth on the ISO dial haha. Thanks for sharing the tip. Mine I believe has the same dial. Fingers crossed there are no jams for some time. The one I picked up appears to have barely been used, with only slight brassing on the very tip of the shutter advance lever. Looking forward to some beautifully brassed signs of use in the coming years  

[250swb]

1 hour ago, _chris_lawrence said:

Thanks for the tips! I heard about the dust seal. I'll send mine off for a CLA in the near future hopefully Nice to hear from others who have an MP from the first batch or batches too.

Only send if for a CLA if there is a problem, mine hasn't had a service since new and still works perfectly.

[_chris_lawrence]

6 hours ago, 250swb said:

Only send if for a CLA if there is a problem, mine hasn't had a service since new and still works perfectly.

Loud and clear. Those aren't cheap. Wow... that's really nice to hear. Testament to the build quality and simplicity in design

[Mute-on]

I never looked up the serial number of my Chrome 0.58 MP until seeing this thread. It’s 2941xxx, so from a batch of 1,000 made in 2003. 

It has also continued to work perfectly, until the frame lines started becoming “sticky” last year. Of course it’s had a 28 Elmarit-M permanently attached for the last few years, so that may have contributed to the issue. 

Notwithstanding what is otherwise full functionality, a 17 year old Leica M would certainly benefit from a CLA, even if only to replace dried out lubricant and limit premature wear to the gear train. Spend a little on preventative maintenance now, or a lot more to fix a problem later on. Mine will be going in for service once we are free to travel internationally once again. 

[Yaakov]

No glory for second place, I think his camera is special for the fact it was used by a well known Magnum photographer + was the very first MP out there, the MP is not really a collection item just yet to be special just because the batch it was made, we will have to wait some time for that.

[Guest]

This is what I have found about early MP (including MP-6) production in 2001 and 2002:

• Erwin Puts lists a larger number of serial numbers allocated to the first (2001) batch than Dennis Laney. All of these 2001 cameras seem to be MP-6 cameras. They might have been prototypes or as Laney calls them "MP Nullserie" models; at least one of these early MP-6 cameras is chrome. From my observation, all 275xxxx MP-6 models seem to fall into the narrower production interval reported by Laney.
• Erwin Puts and Dennis Laney agree on the serial numbers allocated to the 2002 production. The second (2002) batch seems to consist of both black MP-6 cameras and MP cameras with M6 ISO dial. MP cameras produced in the third (2002) batch used the simpler ISO dial found on all later MP models. 

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Is this correct? In other words, does anyone have an MP with M6 ISO dial that falls in the first or third batch or an MP with standard MP ISO dial that falls in the second batch? Thanks for any additional information.

[28framelines]

On 5/8/2020 at 5:11 PM, Chuck Albertson said:

I bought one new in 2003, with S/N 2880XXX. It has the "old" film speed dial of the M6 on the back. I had it in the shop once when the film speed dial jammed at ISO 3200, and in again for a CLA about 10 years ago - overhead baggage bins are not kind to mechanical cameras. If you're changing the film speed, I've found it to be good practice to run the speed dial through the full range first, to dislodge any dust on the contacts and to scrub off any corrosion on the contacts (they're gold, so that is an infrequent occurrence).

Curious, was it the rangefinder that went out of alignment? What do you do now to protect your cameras on planes?

[250swb]

8 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

This is what I have found about early MP (including MP-6) production in 2001 and 2002:

• Erwin Puts lists a larger number of serial numbers allocated to the first (2001) batch than Dennis Laney. All of these 2001 cameras seem to be MP-6 cameras. They might have been prototypes or as Laney calls them "MP Nullserie" models; at least one of these early MP-6 cameras is chrome. From my observation, all 275xxxx MP-6 models seem to fall into the narrower production interval reported by Laney.
• Erwin Puts and Dennis Laney agree on the serial numbers allocated to the 2002 production. The second (2002) batch seems to consist of both black MP-6 cameras and MP cameras with M6 ISO dial. MP cameras produced in the third (2002) batch used the simpler ISO dial found on all later MP models. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Is this correct? In other words, does anyone have an MP with M6 ISO dial that falls in the first or third batch or an MP with standard MP ISO dial that falls in the second batch? Thanks for any additional information.

I think there are some problems with the database and it would be interesting to know exactly how many MP-6 cameras were made which would clear out some of the irrelevant information. Clearly there can't have been 1000 made because there are MP serial numbers (like mine) which come in the middle of MP-6 serial numbers, and I don't believe any MP's start with the '27' serial numbers. Which narrows it down to batch 3 as a candidate for the modified dial, but I think it's really 'batch 4' you should be looking at for that. Generally speaking the MP wasn't even available until early to mid 2003 and I think Leica were by then still working with stocks they had already manufactured or were still making with the M6 style dial.

[Capuccino-Muffin]

26 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I think there are some problems with the database and it would be interesting to know exactly how many MP-6 cameras were made which would clear out some of the irrelevant information. Clearly there can't have been 1000 made because there are MP serial numbers (like mine) which come in the middle of MP-6 serial numbers, and I don't believe any MP's start with the '27' serial numbers. Which narrows it down to batch 3 as a candidate for the modified dial, but I think it's really 'batch 4' you should be looking at for that. Generally speaking the MP wasn't even available until early to mid 2003 and I think Leica were by then still working with stocks they had already manufactured or were still making with the M6 style dial.

Exactly. The serial number is stamped onto the top plate, not onto the RF mechanism, electronic board... 

 

[grahamc]

6 hours ago, 28framelines said:

Curious, was it the rangefinder that went out of alignment? What do you do now to protect your cameras on planes?

I tend to buy mine a seat  

(Joking of course , haven't been on a plane in 2 years ) 

Edited April 15, 2022 by grahamc

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[Guest]

Thanks for your feedback, @250swb . I meanwhile had a chance to read the excellent article, "A little piece of history - How the MP came to be" by Theodore Diehl in the February 2016 issue of "The Leica Society Magazine." The author refers to a MP-6 "pre-series" of less than 100 cameras from 2752xxx to 2752500. This seems close enough to Laney's "MP Nullseries" that I am willing to adopt Laney's number range below. I call these 89 camera the "MP-6 Nullseries." The author also mentions the range of 400 serial numbers allocated to the production of the Japanese MP-6: 2880101 to 2880500. The MP-6 blog article written by the "Japancamerahunter", linked earlier in this thread by @romualdo, claims that only about 250 of these allocated 400 MP-6 cameras were actually produced. But as of now, I have no proof for this claim. 

Based on the information I have collected so far, I am willing to assume the following table for the 2001/02 production for now (I divided the last batch of 2000 cameras into two batches of 1000 cameras each in line with Laney):

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All the serial numbers I have collected from the internet (incl. my own early MP) seem to be consistent with this table. Again, I am always interested in new information that helps me revising this table. Thanks.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Studienkamera

[Chuck Albertson]

11 hours ago, 28framelines said:

Curious, was it the rangefinder that went out of alignment? What do you do now to protect your cameras on planes?

Never a problem with the rangefinder, it was some of the shutter speeds that were a bit off after a lot of trips. Not a lot you can do about the vibrations on planes - carry them in a bag that has some padding to soak up the vibes, and check the shutter speeds when you can. It's a mechanical device, and it will be affected by shaking.