Next generation M glass...

[J.Nordvik]

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[J.Nordvik]

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[Jeff S]

What part of first come, first serve, and the comment that Leica didn’t destroy existing inventory, don’t you understand?  Amazing.

Jeff

[J.Nordvik]

Calm down. I went outside and took a picture. Try it.

[Jeff S]

I’m making prints today.  Very calm until you made a debate out of what I intended as a simple helpful reply to your inquiry.  Ordinarily that makes the recipient and me happy. 

Jeff

[mmradman]

On 5/8/2020 at 8:35 AM, pgk said:

To throw in a curved ball. Given the current status of a 'throwaway' world, I would actually like to see Leica offering a full refurbishment programme on older lenses. Not just a CLA, but a restoration option which might (at a cost) include repolishing and reciting damaged elements or even replacement if feasible. Expensive for sure but an old and worn lens could be restored and have another 50 years of life in it then. Probably too much to ask but it would be a novel, unique approach.

As much as I appreciate repair and restore approach as opposed to use and discard i am doubtful that such restoration would be feasible, where by feasible I mean it would be economic to return to original spec.  Of course if cost is no object everything is possible but that is not realm of mass restoration as suggested.  

I would imagine such restoration would require complete strip down, mechanical parts where replacement is required could be perhaps machined form original material (brass for instance) or 3D printed as one off or small batch, where optical elements need to be reproduced it may be more problematic as some older glass types may be unavailable.  Of course such handcrafted approach is contrary to modern production and assembly.  

What we need is Star Trek type replicator.

[logan2z]

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To  @Jeff S point, it's been well established that the Summarit line is no more.  B&H no longer lists the 35mm and the 50mm is labeled as 'Limited stock'.  Once existing stock is sold that's it.

I own the 35mm/2.4 and 75mm/2.4 and think they're a real bargain.  I've flirted with 'upgrading' to a 35mm Sunmicron but it's hard to justify the price difference given the performance of the Summarit. 

If anyone is considering getting a new Summarit I'd grab one soon before it's too late. 

[Peters]

5 hours ago, mmradman said:

As much as I appreciate repair and restore approach as opposed to use and discard i am doubtful that such restoration would be feasible, where by feasible I mean it would be economic to return to original spec.  Of course if cost is no object everything is possible but that is not realm of mass restoration as suggested.  

I would imagine such restoration would require complete strip down, mechanical parts where replacement is required could be perhaps machined form original material (brass for instance) or 3D printed as one off or small batch, where optical elements need to be reproduced it may be more problematic as some older glass types may be unavailable.  Of course such handcrafted approach is contrary to modern production and assembly.  

What we need is Star Trek type replicator.

Leica already conduct restorations of classic cameras and lenses right? I guess by going all the way on this they would simply broaden an already flowing revenue stream. 

Mind you, the classic re-issues are a nice touch. The new body of the 28mm Summaron re-issue is lovely, and I'd snap up the tiny 35mm Leitz Canada Summilux in a heartbeat if the price was right. I think a smaller, more affordable, more classic rendering lux would fit in very nicely alongside the bigger, crisper FLE. 

[adan]

17 minutes ago, Peters said:

Leica already conduct restorations of classic cameras and lenses right?

Not necessarily. I sent in a 1980-ish 28 Elmarit-M for 6-bit coding, and Leica sent it back with the note "Lens separation detected. No replacement parts available. Unrepairable."

I have seen reports of the same for even more recent (1990s) Leica R lenses. "No longer supported - no parts."

Some Leica M6 electronics (meter) dating to the 1980s (but used into the 2000s) are also unobtainable.

Many glass formulas used in classic lenses are now banned for containing heavy metals (including lead, and once upon a time, radioactive thorium and lanthanum), which means replacement elements of that type for lens restoration cannot be legally (re)produced.

Note final 2-3 paragraphs: https://lhsa.org/2018/09/rare-earth-glass-leica-lenses-a-quick-and-quirky-overview/

[james.liam]

Andy hits it on the head here. For example, the 8-element replica out of Communist China depends on flint glass that would be unavailable from any Western country with real environmental regulations. 

Independent repair outfits are the only real option for restoration. DAG (Don Goldberg), for example, once told me that he had front and rear elements in his possession to replace in certain vintage lenses. A restorer based in Scotland by the name of 'Skyllaney' is doing gut restorations on pre-war Zeiss, post-war Zeiss Jena and FSU glass & underlying mechanicals, going so far as refinishing the lens barrels to look new. Elements are sent out for re-coating as needed. The owner is even planning on a 50 Sonnar of his own. While lead, lanthanum and thorium are off-limits, other new glass formulations are available that can provide near-identical refractive indices of 'lost' glass. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by james.liam

[Peters]

Well I guess there are limits. In any case I am interested in what the next 18mm lens will look like. I had been considering the Super Elmar, but will wait for a little while to see what comes around the corner. Does anyone know if the usual turnaround time it takes for a Leica product to be discontinued and the refreshed version to appear? 

[FrozenInTime]

1 hour ago, Peters said:

Well I guess there are limits. In any case I am interested in what the next 18mm lens will look like. I had been considering the Super Elmar, but will wait for a little while to see what comes around the corner. Does anyone know if the usual turnaround time it takes for a Leica product to be discontinued and the refreshed version to appear? 

I would be very surprised to see a new 18mm; like 24mm, I think M series rationalization at Leica has seen the end of that focal length.

If I had to place a bet on a wide, I would go for a 21mm Summicron.

[budjames]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:37 AM, pgk said:

It might be the solution.

A built-in EVF or EVF hybrid viewfinder on an M will be interesting, but it will also mark the end of the classic M line. I'm very happy with my M10 and M10 converted to an M10-P using 35 and 50 Leica glass.

I can now finally focus my Noctilux M 50mm f/0.95 reliably since adding the SL2 to my kit. I think that the SL2 with IBIS and a great EVF is the solution for me rather than an EVF M. That said, I wouldn't mind the 47mpx SL2 sensor inside the next M with IBIS if it does not increase higher ISO noise.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[pgk]

1 minute ago, budjames said:

A built-in EVF or EVF hybrid viewfinder on an M will be interesting, but it will also mark the end of the classic M line.

Agreed. But if Leica are going to increase apertures then the rangefinder, to say nothing of one's eyesight and its ability to differentiate double to single image shifts, will not be sufficiently accurate. I am considering an SL myself but suspect that an M sized EVF camera may now be inevitable if Leica decide it will gain sufficient sales - that is the big question I should think.

[lct]

Why the end of the M line? There are still film Ms and digital rangefinders will exist as long as there is some demand for them. Put a Visoflex on any M camera since the M240 and the most difficult to focus lenses can be used at full aperture when needed. We (at least i) just need a modern Visoflex and/or a built-in EVF but aside from that and new lenses with more telecentric design, the M line has no reason to change IMHO. 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

Agreed. But if Leica are going to increase apertures then the rangefinder, to say nothing of one's eyesight and its ability to differentiate double to single image shifts, will not be sufficiently accurate. I am considering an SL myself but suspect that an M sized EVF camera may now be inevitable if Leica decide it will gain sufficient sales - that is the big question I should think.

Leica has kept to a consistent entrance pupil size with the two Noctilux, and the Summilux 90. in other words, they are no harder to focus than the ever were, and a rumoured 35/0.7 (or whatever) would be no worse.

An "EVF M" would be killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. Leica would lose all credibility and authenticity almost immediately. Their current strategy is much better, and more profitable: sell an SL to people who would want an "M EVF". And then sell them a Q. And then sell them lots of SL lenses. And then sell them the next M. And a few more M lenses. And so on. Why would they want to do something to make the M line look like a tarted-up Sony? Do they not have families that they love, mortgages, plans for the future, etc?

[pgk]

I have always thought that an EVF 'M' camera would be s problem for Leica for many reasons and I'm far from keen on the idea myself. But there is no doubt that fast M lenses can be awkward to focus - they are on the limit of many people's visual acuity. An EVF could solve this focus problem to some extent and I have no doubt that there will be a market for a rangefinderless EVF 'M'. The question remains however as to whether such a market would make this potential camera an economic proposition. It would also be a controversial move and I'm not convinced about its viability in many ways myself. It may happen though.

[lct]

7 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Leica has kept to a consistent entrance pupil size with the two Noctilux, and the Summilux 90. in other words, they are no harder to focus than the ever were, and a rumoured 35/0.7 (or whatever) would be no worse.

No problem with any 35mm lens but a 90/1.5 lens is at the limit of the RF accuracy due to the effective base length of the rangefinder. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[evikne]

But why do Leica keep making these big, fast lenses with M-mount, instead of L-mount? Many people would think they are better suited to an SL camera.

This may mean that they have some "surprises" for the M-camera in the future.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, budjames said:

A built-in EVF or EVF hybrid viewfinder on an M will be interesting, but it will also mark the end of the classic M line. I'm very happy with my M10 and M10 converted to an M10-P using 35 and 50 Leica glass.

I can now finally focus my Noctilux M 50mm f/0.95 reliably since adding the SL2 to my kit. I think that the SL2 with IBIS and a great EVF is the solution for me rather than an EVF M. That said, I wouldn't mind the 47mpx SL2 sensor inside the next M with IBIS if it does not increase higher ISO noise.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

More likely that there could be two M lines, offered simultaneously, depending of course  on a viable market. If Leica can sell Ms without screens, or with black and white only, why not two viewing options? The RF also doesn’t have to be killed off, if in fact it can be modernized.  

I’d also bet on the rumored M10 R having 40+ MP (sensor from M10 Monochrom with color array), but without IBIS.  

But Leica is full of surprises.  

Jeff