Leitz Xenon 5cm f/1.5 Brief Guide - Rumors and Facts

[willeica]

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1 hour ago, Tears Everywhere said:

each number was recorded by myself. I can tell you where each sample came from.😎

Can you tell us from where? These stats are not available from every corner store. My reference to 10% ( = 200 for Xenons) related to the percentage of known to still exist Grubb lenses owned jointly by pgk and myself. I would believe the Dumur figure of 2,000 as he would have known this from his own production records, but I had believed that he was talking about Xenons per se (see the extract from the Lens Vademecum above), but your implication is that he was talking about TTH Xenons. Thiele's list generally relates to allocated number ranges rather than actual lenses made and does not identify TTH variants. I don't know where the 6,190 in the Blue Book numbers came from, but they are broken down by year from 1936 to 1950. Your theory about the 2,000 relating to TTH Xenons might explain the difference. I see that the eBay seller quotes the 6,190 number, and the lens being sold carries a reference to the TTH US Patent on the front ring, but before he jacks up the price again for even more rarity, here are the Collectiblend averages for the so-called  '2 Ring version', which is the variant being sold here.

https://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/50mm-f1.5-Xenon-(SM,-2-rings).html

and for the TTH version

https://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/50mm-f1.5-Xenon-'Taylor-Hobson'-(SM,-2-rings).html

The XOONS hood and filters for the Summarit would add a bit, but I cannot say if they will fit on the Xenon. They will fit on a Summarit, of course.

As for the price differential in different markets, this would take some research to validate and would need to discount local taxes. If Tears Everywhere has some data on this it would be nice.

Fascinating stuff, Tears Everywhere, for what, I think, is your first series of posts. I bet you are enjoying this as much as we are. Keep the information coming.

William

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by willeica

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[willeica]

2 minutes ago, zeitz said:

William's query "Does anyone have a single example of where somebody or some company successfully sued for breach of lens design copyright or patent?" is an interesting one.

I have examined a case in the US concerning the optically compensation zoom lens.  Dr Frank Back, owner of Zoomar Inc, Glen Cove, NY, held the US patents 2,454,686 (Nov 1948) and 2,718,817 (Sept 1955) for "variable focal lens systems for motion picture and television cameras."    Zoomar sued Paillard in 1957 over the design of the Pan-Cinor 70 and Pan-Cinor 100 lenses.  Zoomar lost in both the US District Court and the US Court of Appeals.  The court ruled that the patents are invalid "for want of invention, insufficient disclosure, and excessively broad claims".  You would think that the first practical zoom lens would have had sufficient invention.  Dr Back invented not only the first optically compensating zoom lens for movie and television cameras, but he also designed the first zoom lens for 35mm cameras (Voigtlander Bessamatic 36-82mm f2.8 lens) and the first zoom lens for medium format cameras (170-320mm f4.0 lens).   (Of additional interest is that the 170-320mm f4.0 is the only production lens that I know of for Visoflex II/III.)

Thanks Zeitz. This more or less confirms the difficulties that would exist in claiming intellectual property rights in a field where developments happen all of the time and are never really unique, but are based on slight improvements on existing designs and computations. We have about 180 years of camera lens development at this stage and very little that is really new ever appears. Some very specific aspects, such as lens mounts, may have been patented but I cannot recall a case where Leica took legal action over the use of the LTM mount (very widespread) or the M mount (even with the cheap M mount lenses from China). The relatively recent L mount may have some electronic aspects and is the subject of a business alliance and that may be more likely to be protected by litigation.

William

[sandro]

Just to add a sidenote on the Schneider involvement: the first Xenon 1.5/5 cm that I find in the "Fabrikationsbuch" of Schneider (of course by Hartmut Thiele) and produced for Leitz was in 1946.

24 January 1946, 12 lenses

29 April 1946, 4 lenses

16 May 1946, 11 lenses

3 July 1946, 64 lenses

25 November 1947, 35 lenses

17 February 1948, 50 lenses

19 October 1948, 1 lens

26 october 1948, 3 lenses (remark: "Muster", example)

No other mention of this Xenon produced for Leitz. According to Laney Leitz produced only 2 Xenon lenses in 1946, just 1 in 1947, and 19 in 1948. 

Lex

[luigi bertolotti]

37 minutes ago, zeitz said:

...   (Of additional interest is that the 170-320mm f4.0 is the only production lens that I know of for Visoflex II/III.)

A Zoom for Viso !! I never heard of ! I know it's out of this discussion... but can you give me some more info about ?

 

(Edit  : just found a reference to it at Cameraquest page on Zoomar...)

Edited May 3, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[Hello]

8 hours ago, Tears Everywhere said:

As you can see in the table attached in original post, not every Xenon made in 1936 and 1937 was engraved with TTH patent.

The total production of Xenon during 1936 to 1937 were 3500 units, as the Leica Wiki described. But only 2000 of them engraved with TTH marking, the other 1500 units were normal Xenon.😊

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[willeica]

34 minutes ago, sandro said:

Just to add a sidenote on the Schneider involvement: the first Xenon 1.5/5 cm that I find in the "Fabrikationsbuch" of Schneider (of course by Hartmut Thiele) and produced for Leitz was in 1946.

24 January 1946, 12 lenses

29 April 1946, 4 lenses

16 May 1946, 11 lenses

3 July 1946, 64 lenses

25 November 1947, 35 lenses

17 February 1948, 50 lenses

19 October 1948, 1 lens

26 october 1948, 3 lenses (remark: "Muster", example)

No other mention of this Xenon produced for Leitz. According to Laney Leitz produced only 2 Xenon lenses in 1946, just 1 in 1947, and 19 in 1948. 

Lex

Great to hear from you Lex. I hope that you and yours are all keeping well in the Netherlands.

This list might imply that production of the Xenon shifted to Schneider in the immediate post war period. Thiele shows no Xenons being produced by Leitz during that period. The Laney figures are the same as the Blue Book, which is not surprising. Dennis was responsible for production of the Blue Books from the 2nd Edition in 1984 to the 7th Edition in 2002.

William

[Tears Everywhere]

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33 minutes ago, willeica said:

here are the Collectiblend averages for the so-called  '2 Ring version', which is the variant being sold here.

https://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/50mm-f1.5-Xenon-(SM,-2-rings).html

and for the TTH version

https://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/50mm-f1.5-Xenon-'Taylor-Hobson'-(SM,-2-rings).html

It took me years to record those 200 Xenon lenses by myself. I wrote to world's major auctions, personal collectors, asking for detailed photos...I also wrote to forum members here including pecole (He owned 600 leica lenses) and alan mcfall (he owned 28 Xenon lenses).

In the past years, I only saw one real 2-rings type Xenon. Most of them were 3-rings type actually. 
I also found some hybrid lenses. Maybe someone had a damaged Xenon, took it apart to fix another one. So a late batch Xenon lens may weirdly had early batch TTH marking on it...

[roydonian]

It's fascinating to see the Xenon lens becoming a subject for discussion. In the early 1960s I purchased a black Leica II (my first Leica), then a 5cm Xenon. I remember this lens as being woefully soft when used at full aperture.

Although Erwin Puts describes the f/1.5 Summarit as being a coated Xenon, there is good evidence that this is not the case. Some years ago, the newsletter of what was then the Leica Historical Society published a letter reporting that the curvature of at least one element of the Summarit was different to that of the Xenon, evidence that the newer lens was a separate design in its own right. If my memory is correct, my friend Cyril Blood was either the author or co-author of the letter in question.

The "A History of the Xenon Lens" linked to by Willeica in posting #21 of this thread states that:

"Interestingly, the first model of the Leitz Summilux 50mm F/1.5 (of 1959) was identical in cross-section to the Xenon/Summarit, but was an improvement over the earlier lenses because of the use of the newly invented high refractive index Lanthanum glass."

And in posting #35, Willeica notes:

"Going back to Thiele, he does end each entry line for the Xenon with 'Schneider-Pat.' which one must assume came from the record books in Wetzlar. Interestingly, the first Summarits have entries which end with 'Xenon-Variante'.

I found the statement by Tears Everywhere that Lee had designed f/1.1 lens with one outer aspheric surface interesting. During my limited and brief research into the lenses of that era (an exercise during which I'd met a real-world example of the Reichsadler for the first time) I'd learned that Bertele had patented an f/1.2 lens.

 

[Tears Everywhere]

6 minutes ago, roydonian said:

I found the statement by Tears Everywhere that Lee had designed f/1.1 lens with one outer aspheric surface interesting. During my limited and brief research into the lenses of that era (an exercise during which I'd met a real-world example of the Reichsadler for the first time) I'd learned that Bertele had patented an f/1.2 lens.

You are right. Ludwig Bertele had many patents about super fast lens. The fastest one reached f/1.0 in 1925. There were also commercial advertisements about f/1.3 Ernostar for sale.
 

[luigi bertolotti]

13 minutes ago, roydonian said:

 

Although Erwin Puts describes the f/1.5 Summarit as being a coated Xenon, there is good evidence that this is not the case. Some years ago, the newsletter of what was then the Leica Historical Society published a letter reporting that the curvature of at least one element of the Summarit was different to that of the Xenon, evidence that the newer lens was a separate design in its own right. If my memory is correct, my friend Cyril Blood was either the author or co-author of the letter in question.

 

 

Could this be a cosequence of the glass type ? After all, many htings happened in the world between the first production runs of Xenon and the first Summarit... Marco Caviina, on his article on Leitz 50mm lenses, does report the detail of glass types but it is not clear if he refers to Xenon or to Summarit : btw, Summarit was also manufactured in Midland factory, iirc...

And,... what about the "Roentgen Xenon" ? 😉 Was it simply a different mount of exactly the same lens assembly, or a slightly different design ?

 

[willeica]

24 minutes ago, Tears Everywhere said:

It took me years to record those 200 Xenon lenses by myself. I wrote to world's major auctions, personal collectors, asking for detailed photos...I also wrote to forum members here including pecole (He owned 600 leica lenses) and alan mcfall (he owned 28 Xenon lenses).

In the past years, I only saw one real 2-rings type Xenon. Most of them were 3-rings type actually. 
I also found some hybrid lenses. Maybe someone had a damaged Xenon, took it apart to fix another one. So a late batch Xenon lens may weirdly had early batch TTH marking on it...

Thanks. So, you have been assembling this for quite some time. You must have enough material for an article by now.

What are called 2 Ring lenses are sometimes called 3 Ring Lenses and what are called 3 Ring lenses are sometimes called 4 Ring lenses. A quick inspection of the respective 2 Ring and 3 Ring images on Collectiblend will soon clarify the issue if anyone is trying to identify a particular lens. They should be very easy to identify.

51 minutes ago, roydonian said:

Although Erwin Puts describes the f/1.5 Summarit as being a coated Xenon, there is good evidence that this is not the case. Some years ago, the newsletter of what was then the Leica Historical Society published a letter reporting that the curvature of at least one element of the Summarit was different to that of the Xenon, evidence that the newer lens was a separate design in its own right. If my memory is correct, my friend Cyril Blood was either the author or co-author of the letter in question.

Laney also described the Summarit as being a coated Xenon. Looking at the lens element drawings in his book, the main noticeable difference is in the front element and there is no doubt about the fact that there was a strong element of Xenon DNA in the Summarit. Indeed, going further the heritage is also to be seen in the first Summilux and this was stated by Laney. All of this supports the notion of lens development as being an incremental process as opposed to being a series of giant leaps forward. The late 1940s and the early 1950s were, of course, a period of experimentation by Leica and other manufacturers as regards glass types and these were fed into the development process.

Whatever way you look at it the Summilux of the late 1950s can have some its heritage traced back to the work of Lee and Tronnier back in the 1920s. This fits in with earlier developments where each generation of lens begat the next generation, even as far back as the mid 19th Century.

William

 

[Tears Everywhere]

48 minutes ago, willeica said:

What are called 2 Ring lenses are sometimes called 3 Ring Lenses and what are called 3 Ring lenses are sometimes called 4 Ring lenses. A quick inspection of the respective 2 Ring and 3 Ring images on Collectiblend will soon clarify the issue if anyone is trying to identify a particular lens. They should be very easy to identify.

As you can see at the beginning of this topic, I made the record with 3&4 rings type as identify.
Most auctions of the past ten years should be already recorded in that table.😊 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Tears Everywhere

[willeica]

21 minutes ago, Tears Everywhere said:

As you can see in the table at the beginning of this topic, I use 3-4-rings as identify system.
Most auctions of the past ten years should be already recorded in that table.😊 

That is fine once you do this consistently. Collectiblend uses the more usual 2 and 3 Ring designations as you will see.

William 

 

 

 

[derleicaman]

Greetings to you all. The Xenon has always been a favorite of mine, and currently I have seven in my collection. I don’t know if it is the romantic notion of a high speed lens from the early days of the Leica, or just the name itself. It’s just cool!

Anyway, I am extending an invitation to you all here to write an in depth article on the Xenon, or perhaps a series of articles for the LHSA Viewfinder. I am thinking something along the lines of development, production and variations and the patent story. I did include one of my Xenons in my Bokeh Kings article a few years ago.

Well, who’s up for the challenge? William, Tears Everywhere, pgk, Roydonian? Let’s do it!

[Tears Everywhere]

1 hour ago, derleicaman said:

Greetings to you all. The Xenon has always been a favorite of mine, and currently I have seven in my collection. I don’t know if it is the romantic notion of a high speed lens from the early days of the Leica, or just the name itself. It’s just cool!

Anyway, I am extending an invitation to you all here to write an in depth article on the Xenon, or perhaps a series of articles for the LHSA Viewfinder. I am thinking something along the lines of development, production and variations and the patent story. I did include one of my Xenons in my Bokeh Kings article a few years ago.

Well, who’s up for the challenge? William, Tears Everywhere, pgk, Roydonian? Let’s do it!

Dear Sir, as you can see, there are many typo and grammar errors in my post. I am not from an English speaking country, it is not easy for me to white a depth article in English.
However, I am very glad to provide information, research data, help any one who can do it.  😊

 

[pgk]

Any in-depth article would really need an introduction in terms of how the photographic optics world evolved. It would be fun to contribute but it is far from easy to be accurate and objective because few records exist and there are many gaps in our knowledge. I would however suggest that there are some sweeping statements which could help appreciate where designs came from. There was an early 'empirical' era in which intuition and experimentation played a significant part, then a period of greater understanding when mathematics crept in, this was overlaid by advances in other fields such as the breakthroughs in glass manufacture in the early 1890s which gave lens makers and designers greater scope for producing better designs. Next came a period of what might be described as consolidation - which is the era in which the Xenon appeared, and finally we are now in the computerised, digital age, which evolved post WWII and accelerated with advances in PCs. This would make a good start and place the Xenon design in context. Some brief history of businesses such as TTH would add helpful detail.

Obviously this section will need fleshing out and would need further explanation of why Britain and Germany became the leaders of photographic lens design and production pre-WWII. Paradoxically, whilst Britain faded as a photographic lens producers, firms like Cooke (and in France Angenieux) became highly specialised and survive to this day, as do descendants of businesses such as Wray, Aldis, Pilkington and other, once well known, names. Schneider, Leica and Zeiss survive by being at the top of their game and are still in photographic optics which I find quite fascinating given the dominance of Japanese optical makers and now, Chinese. Things move on. 

I'm up for giving it a go!

Edited May 4, 2020 by pgk
typo

[roydonian]

Tears Everywhere wrote: "I am not from an English speaking country, it is not easy for me to white a depth article in English."

But I have worked as a technical journalist for more than 40 years, have been the editor of several technical magazines, and have written for 'Viewfinder'. So I have the skills needed to optimise a text written by someone who is not a native English speaker. So feel free to write a text that we could work on until you are satisfied that it is of publishable quality.

Best regards

 

(I can hear Derleicaman muttering to himself "But what about the articles you have already promised me, Mr Roydonian, but which have never arrived?" Alas, my wife was ill in 2018, and had a relapse last year.   But with luck, she will get a good medical report later today, and I will then have the spare time needed to finalise those 'Viewfinder' articles.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sandro]

Wonderful idea Bill, to have an article written for Viewfinder! For those who are diving into the history of the Xenon 1.5 50mm to write that article, and who can read German, there is also the article by Ulf Richter about the development of 5 cm Leica lenses in 25 Jahre Leica Historica, from 2000. About Xenonm there see pages 131-132, and Summarit pages 135-136.

Lex

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Hallo,

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[sandro]

Of the 64 Xenon lenses produced by Schneider for Leitz in 1946 one or two are for sale now. They show a different mount, no mention of Leitz , only Schneider Kreuznach instead.

Lex

[Tears Everywhere]

I should create a new topic:
Romance of the three optical giants: Taylor Hobson, Schneider and Leica. 😄