BrianS Posted October 10, 2020 Share #141 Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) On 5/24/2020 at 1:15 PM, Tears Everywhere said: The official design paper of Summarit. The 4th glass surface (cemented) was different to Xenon. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Thankyou for this information: it confirms what I've suspected after comparing the Xenon with five Summarits. All five Summarits had "51.1" scribed on the barrel, visible after taking from the focus mount. All five close-focused at F1.5 and were spot-on at infinity. The Summarit requires stopping down to ~F2.8 for optimal use at closest distance. This is explained by the 51.1mm actual focal length and the effects of spherical aberration. The Xenon (I have only shot with the one that I own) is optimized for F1.5 across the entire range. The Hex shaped aperture ring reduces focus shift due to spherical aberration at the expense of a softer image. My Xenon has very clean glass, internal haze cleaned out nicely, This thread is the only one I know of with disassembly instructions for the Xenon. I followed this to clean mine. https://cameraderie.org/threads/xenon-5cm-f-1-5-disassembly-walk-through.39220/ Edited October 10, 2020 by BrianS 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 10, 2020 Posted October 10, 2020 Hi BrianS, Take a look here Leitz Xenon 5cm f/1.5 Brief Guide - Rumors and Facts. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rionda Posted October 20, 2020 Share #142 Posted October 20, 2020 In case it is useful for the table, I have the Xenon 376623, D.P.R., 3 rings (or 2 rings), scale in meter. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted September 22, 2021 Share #143 Posted September 22, 2021 (edited) Nice to re-read this thread having just bought an early Leitz Taylor Hobson Xenon, with a contemporary Leica 111 that may have been together from new. 2/3 ring, both patents, Agfa colour dots. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited September 22, 2021 by Pyrogallol 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/309062-leitz-xenon-5cm-f15-brief-guide-rumors-and-facts/?do=findComment&comment=4279616'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 22, 2021 Share #144 Posted September 22, 2021 Really a good finding !! Compliments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted September 26, 2021 Share #145 Posted September 26, 2021 On 5/2/2020 at 8:58 AM, luigi bertolotti said: Thanks ! You made me discover the huge infos on patents that can be found on the Net... 😃 I found quickly Marx and Seidel patent for the Noctilux (quoted as a 52mm f 1,2 lens...) where they quote the above Lee patent. for the aspherical lens.: I wonder if TTH actually tried to MANUFACTURE the "Lee's aspherical" .. even if in math terms is a rather "simple" aspherical I suppose that in the '30s it was almost impossible to make it at industrially acceptable costs. As a side note... while searching, I also got to know that Mandler patented a mirror lens... I am re-reading this thread, and came across your side note on Mandler and the mirror lens. At one of the LHSA meetings, Dr. Mandler was a speaker. I asked him what his favorite lens he designed was. He answered, a mirror lens. I think he also commented it was for military use. No details other than that. I’m sure it was a longer focal length, as it was a mirror lens. What focal length was the patent for. I’m sure this was the same lens he was referring to. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted September 26, 2021 Share #146 Posted September 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, derleicaman said: I am re-reading this thread, and came across your side note on Mandler and the mirror lens. At one of the LHSA meetings, Dr. Mandler was a speaker. I asked him what his favorite lens he designed was. He answered, a mirror lens. I think he also commented it was for military use. No details other than that. I’m sure it was a longer focal length, as it was a mirror lens. What focal length was the patent for. I’m sure this was the same lens he was referring to. this Canadian 500/8 MR-Telyt ? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/309062-leitz-xenon-5cm-f15-brief-guide-rumors-and-facts/?do=findComment&comment=4281872'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 26, 2021 Share #147 Posted September 26, 2021 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) The MR Telyt 500 was an item made by Minolta (and also designed, I think.. they made it for lot of years, even in AF version) The Mandler's patented Mirror lens, much earlier, was a 600mm with a great aperture ( f 5, according to the specs) : a quite different design from Minolta's , with a pair of glass elements before the first mirror : https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/20/bb/0e/5af7c682f19968/US2726574.pdf F 1:5 for a 600mm is really a high luminosity... Zeiss made a 500m 4,5, Sigma even a 500mm f4... dunno if a 600mm with such apertures was made. Edited September 26, 2021 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted September 26, 2021 Share #148 Posted September 26, 2021 1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said: The MR Telyt 500 was an item made by Minolta (and also designed, I think.. they made it for lot of years, even in AF version) The Mandler's patented Mirror lens, much earlier, was a 600mm with a great aperture ( f 5, according to the specs) : a quite different design from Minolta's , with a pair of glass elements before the first mirror : https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/20/bb/0e/5af7c682f19968/US2726574.pdf F 1:5 for a 600mm is really a high luminosity... Zeiss made a 500m 4,5, Sigma even a 500mm f4... dunno if a 600mm with such apertures was made. Luigi, thanks for locating this! Patent date of 1951 pre-dates Leitz Canada. I wonder if this is the lens Dr. Mandler was talking about? I had always thought this lens was an Elcan for military use, as a 600mm mirror lens would be much smaller (man portable in military parlance) than an optical 600mm lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted September 26, 2021 Share #149 Posted September 26, 2021 2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said: F 1:5 for a 600mm is really a high luminosity... Zeiss made a 500m 4,5, Sigma even a 500mm f4... dunno if a 600mm with such apertures was made. Heinz Kilfitt's 600mm f5.6 lens, a doublet achromat, came out in 1952. Of course Leitz made the 800mm f6.3 Telyt-S triplet apochromat. Today with exotic glass types 600mm f4.0 and 800mm f.56 lenses are routine. Patrice-Herve Pont in his Kilfitt / Zoomar book lists a Zoomar 500mm f2.8 mirror lens; I have never seen any other reference to this Zoomar lens. Canon made some number of 800mm f3.8 mirror lenses. For mirror lenses it is a matter of how big an optical element you can grind and how big a lump a photographer is willing to lug around. The Canon 800mm f3.8 weighed something like 20 kg. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 26, 2021 Share #150 Posted September 26, 2021 1 hour ago, derleicaman said: Luigi, thanks for locating this! Patent date of 1951 pre-dates Leitz Canada. I wonder if this is the lens Dr. Mandler was talking about? I had always thought this lens was an Elcan for military use, as a 600mm mirror lens would be much smaller (man portable in military parlance) than an optical 600mm lens. Me too think that dates don't match for a (supposed Elcan) military lens... (which, btw, I doubt could be "normally" patented) ; would be interesting to investigate further. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 26, 2021 Share #151 Posted September 26, 2021 11 minutes ago, zeitz said: Heinz Kilfitt's 600mm f5.6 lens, a doublet achromat, came out in 1952. Of course Leitz made the 800mm f6.3 Telyt-S triplet apochromat. Today with exotic glass types 600mm f4.0 and 800mm f.56 lenses are routine. Patrice-Herve Pont in his Kilfitt / Zoomar book lists a Zoomar 500mm f2.8 mirror lens; I have never seen any other reference to this Zoomar lens. Canon made some number of 800mm f3.8 mirror lenses. For mirror lenses it is a matter of how big an optical element you can grind and how big a lump a photographer is willing to lug around. The Canon 800mm f3.8 weighed something like 20 kg. I referred to mirror lenses for 35 mm (evem if the Zeiss Mirotar, apparently, did cover 6x6... iirc was made available also for Rollei 66) ; Canon 800 f 3,8 !!! Where can I find some info on ? I am always passionate of "monster lenses"... 😎 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted September 26, 2021 Share #152 Posted September 26, 2021 51 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said: Where can I find some info on ? Luigi, this website has the instructions to the three monster Canon TV mirror lenses - 800mm f3.8, 2000mm f11.0 and 5200mm f14.0. While the lenses could be bought with Canonflex SLR breech mounts, the 800mm and 2000mm lenses were really intended for vidicon TV cameras. Many of the Zoomar mirror lenses were primarily for industrial uses also. https://www.canonrumors.com/a-bit-of-history-about-canon-and-catadioptric-mirror-lenses/ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears Everywhere Posted September 26, 2021 Author Share #153 Posted September 26, 2021 On 5/2/2020 at 9:58 PM, luigi bertolotti said: Thanks ! You made me discover the huge infos on patents that can be found on the Net... 😃 I found quickly Marx and Seidel patent for the Noctilux (quoted as a 52mm f 1,2 lens...) where they quote the above Lee patent. for the aspherical lens.: I wonder if TTH actually tried to MANUFACTURE the "Lee's aspherical" .. even if in math terms is a rather "simple" aspherical I suppose that in the '30s it was almost impossible to make it at industrially acceptable costs. As a side note... while searching, I also got to know that Mandler patented a mirror lens... I am surprised this thread still popular after one year! Actually TTH has applied aspherical lens into product line before WWII, they were not fast speeds but lenses for special correction. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears Everywhere Posted September 26, 2021 Author Share #154 Posted September 26, 2021 6 hours ago, derleicaman said: Luigi, thanks for locating this! Patent date of 1951 pre-dates Leitz Canada. I wonder if this is the lens Dr. Mandler was talking about? I had always thought this lens was an Elcan for military use, as a 600mm mirror lens would be much smaller (man portable in military parlance) than an optical 600mm lens. The lens you mentioned might be APO-Telyt 600mm, which was highly possible based on another Leica mirror patent dated 1966, a much longer sized 600mm f/5. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/309062-leitz-xenon-5cm-f15-brief-guide-rumors-and-facts/?do=findComment&comment=4282168'>More sharing options...
zeitz Posted September 26, 2021 Share #155 Posted September 26, 2021 9 minutes ago, Tears Everywhere said: another Leica mirror patent dated 1966 We have wandered away from the original posting, but . . . Is D2 in this drawing a diaphragm? That would have been a significant advancement in mirror lens design. This design is more like a Zoomar Reflectar because the lens mount would be significantly rearward of the back of the primary mirror. If you look at the Minolta design in post # 146, the back of the primary mirror is very close to the lens mount. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 27, 2021 Share #156 Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) Indeed, completely different from the1951 patent I linked in #147...though both 600mm f5... the back 6 elements (with apparent diaphragm) are worth noting... someway, they resemble a teleconverter added to a Mirror lens... can you find the complete document ? Anyway, at least, this one is definitely ELCAN... it can be well the lens quoted by Mandler. Edited September 27, 2021 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears Everywhere Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share #157 Posted October 1, 2021 The APO-Telyt 1:5/600mm have an aperture control ring which unusual for a mirror. That mechanism came from German patent DE1293468, an exact mirror designed by Mandler. The rear part with 6 glass elements was designed to put a diaphragm inside, which is important for military surveillance photography. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/309062-leitz-xenon-5cm-f15-brief-guide-rumors-and-facts/?do=findComment&comment=4284646'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 1, 2021 Share #158 Posted October 1, 2021 (edited) Thanks ! I'd say that by sure this is the lens which Mandler spoke about with Der Leicaman (post #145) And... is the lens you depicted yours ? Have you some picture taken with ? Edited October 1, 2021 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears Everywhere Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share #159 Posted October 1, 2021 35 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said: Thanks ! I'd say that by sure this is the lens which Mandler spoke about with Der Leicaman (post #145) And... is the lens you depicted yours ? Have you some picture taken with ? Of course, that lens is not mine😅 All those photos came from https://www.apotelyt.com/camera-lens/leica-apo-telyt-r-600mm-56 The only thing I can do is analyse Mandler's patent via computer optical simulation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted October 17, 2021 Share #160 Posted October 17, 2021 On 9/22/2021 at 3:56 PM, Pyrogallol said: Nice to re-read this thread having just bought an early Leitz Taylor Hobson Xenon, with a contemporary Leica 111 that may have been together from new. 2/3 ring, both patents, Agfa colour dots. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I put a film through the Leica 111 with the 50mm f1.5 Taylor Hobson Xenon and these are copies of a couple of darkroom prints. Rope block 30th at f1.5 and tea cup 100th at f2.2, FP4 in Rodinal. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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