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Elmarit-R 180/2.8 v1 vs v2


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Good morning, I'm new of this forum, I'm Italian and my English is not very good. I have known the world from a short time. I shoot with a Nikon D810, Leitz and Zeiss lenses. I own (I replaced the bayonet) Elmarit-R 28/2.8 v1, Summicron-R 50/2 v2, Elmarit-R 90/2.8 v1, Summicron-R 90/2 v1, Elmarit-R 135/2.8 and since I met the yield (which colours!!!!!!!!!!) I love LEICA!!!!!!.........., and I sold all my Nikon lenses, but I keep Zeiss lens and I use Leica or Zeiss for one or another purpose, result which I want to obtain. I'd like to buy an Elmarit-R 180/2.8: i know there are also Apo-Telyt-R 180/3.4, which was commissioned by the US Navy and optimized for infinity and there is Elmar-R 180/4, but I don't want them, because the Apo-Telyt-R's bokeh seems not be good as Elmarit-R 180/2.8 and Elmar-R 180/4 because I want an f/2.8 for bokeh. I want tho shoot at medium distances with my new 180mm and for me the bokeh is the most important thing.

These are my needs:

1)Leica classic colours;

2) Bokeh and transition out of focus areas; 

3) I want Leica's classic warm shades;  

4)I don't want high contrast;

5)I don't want low sharpness; 

6)Weight isn't important.

Shoot to plants, portraits.

Considering my needs, which version should I choose? Leica Elmarit-R 180mm f/2.8 first version, or the second?

 

Thank you!!!

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Welcome Jedi,

The second version of Elmarit-R 180mm is better corrected, much lighter than the first version.

Don't forget that this is the first focal length that CA ( aberration mostly "corrected" by "apo lens") can ruin all the photos ...

 I used on film the 180 Elmarit-R "II" for decades and now replaced by the Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180 which sometimes I put the Apo-Extender-R x2 on.

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12 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

 I used on film the 180 Elmarit-R "II" for decades and now replaced by the Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180 which sometimes I put the Apo-Extender-R x2 on.

Hello, thanks for your answer. I could also buy an APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4, but I've understood that its bokeh isn't good as Elmarit-R 180/2.8 II: is it true?

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For me the 3.4/180 can give good enough "oof blending" ( if that is called bokeh which can be "ugly for some people", not me ),  when used as such.

I think that framing and whole frame without CA is more important for me than oof blending,

like all things in images, different people sees (want to see) different things.

 

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5 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

I think that framing and whole frame without CA is more important for me than oof blending,

Hello, yes, it's like that for me too. I didn't think that CA could be very remarkable with the first version of Elmarit-R 180/2.8. I think I will choose Elmarit-R 180/2.8 II.

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1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Welcome Jedi,

The second version of Elmarit-R 180mm is better corrected, much lighter than the first version.

Don't forget that this is the first focal length that CA ( aberration mostly "corrected" by "apo lens") can ruin all the photos ...

 I used on film the 180 Elmarit-R "II" for decades and now replaced by the Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180 which sometimes I put the Apo-Extender-R x2 on.

Photographs on digital media that exhibit CA are not ruined, as they can be simply corrected in postprocessing.

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7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Photographs on digital media that exhibit CA are not ruined, as they can be simply corrected in postprocessing.

Yes, but when the CA are remarkable, not always it is possible to recover. However, I always check a lens with the right "character" for a purpose, yield which i want to obtain, with minimal post-processing.

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1 minute ago, jaapv said:

Exactly, and as CA is just one slider and click, or even auto and click, it qualifies as "minimal processing".

I would like to not do a minimal process, such at films times, when digital didn't exist. You could obtain only what a lens with its soul could give to you.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Jedi:

Hello, thanks for your answer. I could also buy an APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4, but I've understood that its bokeh isn't good as Elmarit-R 180/2.8 II: is it true?

bokeh, schmokeh. the apo-telyt is one of the sharpest lenses ever made. nobody cares about the unsharp background

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7 hours ago, harryzet said:

bokeh, schmokeh. the apo-telyt is one of the sharpest lenses ever made. nobody cares about the unsharp background

I have understood that sharpness is the less important thing in photography....... I thought that Leica users knew it....... Bah!

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It happens that I tested both versions of the 180 Elmarit a decade ago (on a Canon 5DII).

I post examples below specifically examining blur and bokeh (which includes vignetting).

The more compact v.2 vignettes more at f/2.8 - and that also affects the shape of the blurs (the v.2 produces stronger "cat's-eye-shaped" blur circles.) The v.2 also has more contrast, adding to the "hardness" of the blur shapes..

You say weight doesn't matter, which is fine.

But I will say the 180 Elmarit v.1 is an absolute concrete block to handle, at 1325g weight. (Most other 180 f/2.8s from other makers - and Leica - come in at around 800g±). I found it literally painful to hold for more than 5-10 minutes of shooting at a time. Hands, arms, shoulders, back. Most of my medium-format lenses weigh less.

The only heavier 180 f/2.8 I've ever used was the massive Zeiss Jena Sonnar from the 1950-60s (1385g): http://allphotolenses.com/lenses/item/c_379.html#prettyPhoto

For me, it simply wasn't worth the agony - I got an APO-Telyt to replace it after 3 months.

Net, I would say that the v.2 is the best compromise between bokeh and weight (as well as focusing closer). The APO f/3.4 is the winner on sharpness, and has classic Mandler color with medium contrast. But the v.1 would seem to fit your list the closest.

12 hours ago, Jedi said:

These are my needs:

1)Leica classic colours; no significant difference

2) Bokeh and transition out of focus areas; See samples

3) I want Leica's classic warm shades;  as in (1) - Mandler color from either (slightly yellow-green compared to today's Leica lenses)

4)I don't want high contrast; V. 1 wins here

5)I don't want low sharpness; very close, but v. 2 probably wins here, at least in the center of the picture; neither are APO

6)Weight isn't important. OK

180mm Elmarit-R v.1 at f/2.8 vvvvvv

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

180mm Elmarit-R v.2 at f/2.8 vvvvvv

NOT A COMPARISON, but just a sample from the version 1 showing detail at f/2.8 (plus inset showing whole frame). The v.1 transition from sharp to soft is smooth and spread-out, not rapid and obvious.

The v.1 also has a tendency to produce strong glows around blue or purple lights at f/2.8 (2nd detail, from Times Square at night). Fairly typical of pre-APO/ASPH/ED/L telephotos from the 1970s.

 

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8 hours ago, harryzet said:

nobody cares about the unsharp background

It isn't true: you'll can undestrand that sharpness is the less important thing in photography when you'll mature in photography, but there is the risk that you will stay a pixel-peeper and you won't know the wonderful things of real photography. However, it is true that there isn't an absolute truth , like in real life. Sharpness is the most important thing for only one photographic genre, landscape, from the centre to the angle, but hotography hides many wonderful secrets of its beauty!

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8 hours ago, harryzet said:

the apo-telyt is one of the sharpest lenses ever made

It isn't true: many modern lenses can easily defeat the old king Leica APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4 for sharpness, because today the technical possibilities are much more advanced than the 180/3.4's times, but modern lenses, also lens of 2000 euro, haven't got colours, delicacy, bokeh, tonal passages, reading in the shadows  of single and different lenses of that time. Today the lens, pro and entry-level lenses, are anonymous, all equal in performance, contrasted and ultra sharp, but haven't their wonderful character!

I have owned the Nikon AF-D 200/4 micro and the Leica Apo-Telyt-R 180/3.4 of a friend: at infinity the Nikon, on 36 Mpx of D810, had more sharpness. The modern Nikon AF-S 200/2 is sharper than Leica APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4, but hasn't got all is wonderful character!!

Read that: it's a comparison amon Leica APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4, Leica Elmarit-R 180/2.8 and Canon 200mm only about sharpness: read in the middle of the article, please:

 

http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Leitz_Apo-Telyt_180mm_glass/00_pag.htm

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Hello, Adan, thank you for your reply! I appreciate much more the result of the bokeh of the v1 in your samples above. For my tastes the portrait of the girl at the port has got wonderful colours and perfect contrast and bokeh. The transitions of the focus planes are very good!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I choose to coexist in my photographic equipment Leica Elmarit-R 90/2.8 (for classical portraits), Leica Summicron-R 90/2 (for dreamlike set portraits), Zeiss Planar 85/1.4 ZF.2 and Zeiss Makro-Planar 100/2 ZF.2 for others genres, when I want first of all sharpness, as well as Leica Summicron-R 50/2 and Zeiss Makro-Planar 50/2 ZF.2 (which is a macro lenses, but a lens for all the purposes) and Zeiss Milvus 50/1.4 ZF.2. Zeiss 85/1.4 e 100/2 have double personality depending on the diaphragm you choose to use.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Jedi:

It isn't true: you'll can undestrand that sharpness is the less important thing in photography when you'll mature in photography, but there is the risk that you will stay a pixel-peeper and you won't know the wonderful things of real photography. However, it is true that there isn't an absolute truth , like in real life. Sharpness is the most important thing for only one photographic genre, landscape, from the centre to the angle, but hotography hides many wonderful secrets of its beauty!

maybe i will mature in photography, as i was only working as a professional for upi and austrias largest newspaper for 30 years. nobody asked me about bokeh in all this time.

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