Exposure Compensation Question

[a.noctilux]

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9 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Please confirm.

...

 

I will try this later today, taking one photo with no compensation, then taking an image with +3 stops compensation, then the last photo with -3 stops of compensation.  From what I (think) I've read, this should work.

Mike,

Just try, you will have those done, of course.

But what for ?

To repeat myself : you use wrongly the compensations properties which are mostly for "A" mode.

At first your choice of using "Auto Iso" in Manual speed settings following the LED indication is something I don't understand.

 

I think that in speed manual setting, you may not use "Auto iso" ( which is there when using "A", the M chooses ISO AND speed for the light condition).

 

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[IkarusJohn]

35 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Please confirm.

If I am in Auto-ISO mode, and I select an aperture and a shutter, and presumably the viewfinder indicators will confirm I now have a good exposure (according to the camera).

Now, if I use exposure compensation to either + or  -  3 stops. and leave everything else unchanged, the resulting photo will be over or under exposed by those 3 (or whatever) stops.   And presumably, ALL my next shots will also be over or under exposed, until I return the exposure compensation to "zero".

 

I will try this later today, taking one photo with no compensation, then taking an image with +3 stops compensation, then the last photo with -3 stops of compensation.  From what I (think) I've read, this should work.

Correct.

Depending on the camera, Auto-ISO is useful.  Because it’s B&W, and the way the camera performs, I use Auto-ISO on my Monochrom, allowing it the full range from 320-10,000.  But this is in combination with manual aperture and shutter.  

With the M10-D, I set the ISO and either shoot manually or in Aperture priority.  I never have both A (in aperture priority) and Auto ISO at the same time as something weird goes on.  Perhaps it’s the lack of control, but I can’t work out which is being adjusted and how - a bit like the much derided Snapshot mode on the M9.

I always have Exposure Compensation set to -2/3, whatever the setting to protect the highlights.

The point is, the meter is always reading slightly under-exposed.  It’s either setting the shutter, ISO or meter reading (for you to adjust) at the reading you’ve set on the EC dial.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by IkarusJohn

[MikeMyers]

Thanks, will try to leave it at -2/3 as you do.  

I'm still learning.  I also have to learn not to bump the wheel, and change it unintentionally.

[Robert Blanko]

My approach is usually the following:

First setting the aperture to adjust the desired depth of field. (I think, even a famous Leica legend said, the aperture does not serve the purpose to adjust the amount of light but to control the DOF. 😏 )

Then the following main options apply:

If the scene doesn’t require a particular exposure time (such as a minimum time for moving objects), one may use aperture priority and let Auto ISO do the remaining part. This all works with exposure correction, if desired.

If you need a minimum exposure time, you may set said option in the auto ISO menu which is generally recommendable.

If you want to use a particular time, set the time and let Auto ISO solve the exposure equation. Also here, this would work with exposure correction, if desired.

[Robert Blanko]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Robert Blanko:

 

If the scene doesn’t require a particular exposure time (such as a minimum time for moving objects), one may use aperture priority and let Auto ISO do the remaining part. This all works with exposure correction, if desired.

It should of course read „maximum time“ instead of „minimum time“...

[robert blu]

I like to select iso, aperture and leave the camera to select the time, with -2/3 compensation as IkarusJohn says to protect the highlights. Of course I select values where I know the times will be at least near the desired value, in other words if I want a quick time I'll use a large aperture.

When I evaluate I need under or over exposure I simply point the camera to an are with more or less light half press the shutter recompose and take the photo.

It seems me simpler than changing the exposure compensation each time in different light sitations.

Edited March 4, 2020 by robert blu
typos !

[MikeMyers]

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20 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

.........setting the aperture to adjust the desired depth of field. (I think, even a famous Leica legend said, the aperture does not serve the purpose to adjust the amount of light but to control the DOF......

On the one hand, this is "obvious", but most of the time I haven't thought of it that way unless I was trying to deliberately have more or less DOF.  What you wrote makes perfect sense.  I've been doing this backwards, selecting what seems like a reasonable shutter speed, then using either a very low, middle, or very high setting for aperture (leaving the camera to select an ISO.  I realize now that it would usually make more sense to select a desired aperture, and then select a shutter speed that gets me a reasonable exposure (unless I'm trying to freeze action, which makes the shutter the main selection).  

I need to make it a routine process to consider all the above, rather than just finding something that gives me the correct exposure.  For the past few days, I've been setting the aperture to maybe 5.6 or 8, and if the shutter speed sounded reasonable (not way too fast or too slow), leaving it like that.  

The reason for my getting the Leica in the first place was to give me MORE control over my images, and I need to force myself into NOT allowing the camera to make all the decisions my Nikon cameras typically did.  ......and manual focusing seems to remind me not only of what I want to be sharp, but also of those areas I want the opposite.

The Exposure Compensation Wheel would be a good way to fix views that should make it obvious the exposure will be wrong, such as my subject being in front of an all white wall.  On my Nikon, I just switch it to "spot focus".  I'm not even sure if this would work on the M10, but I doubt it.  But if I'm thinking about these things, I can fix it myself.  (....and thank you to the person who reminded me of the Histogram - that has been very helpful.)

[MikeMyers]

3 hours ago, robert blu said:

.........When I evaluate I need under or over exposure I simply point the camera to an are with more or less light half press the shutter recompose and take the photo.   It seems me simpler than changing the exposure compensation each time in different light sitations.

Quick question - on my Nikon, I would have trusted this completely.  How well does this work with the exposure metering system on the Leica?   Which setting is your metering set for, "average", "center weighted", or "spot" ?   

I've done this for ages on simple cameras for sunset photos - aim camera at sunset sky, press shutter half way to lock exposure, lower camera, take photo.  I haven't had a chance to try this yet with the m10.  Wouldn't I need to change the metering to at least "center weighted" to use this effectively?  I'll start trying this from now on, and see how well it works for me, with the meter set for "average".  If that doesn't work, I'll try "center weighted".  

With Nikon, I accepted the metering results as "fact".  With the m10, I've been considering them more as "suggestions".  There's a YouTube video that explains this in great detail - I'll search for it again.  ............so many things to remember...............

[MikeMyers]

10 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

It should of course read „maximum time“ instead of „minimum time“...

Strange, I knew what you meant, and didn't pay any attention to the actual words until just now.   :-)

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

Quick question - on my Nikon, I would have trusted this completely.  How well does this work with the exposure metering system on the Leica?   Which setting is your metering set for, "average", "center weighted", or "spot" ?   

I've done this for ages on simple cameras for sunset photos - aim camera at sunset sky, press shutter half way to lock exposure, lower camera, take photo.  I haven't had a chance to try this yet with the m10.  Wouldn't I need to change the metering to at least "center weighted" to use this effectively?  I'll start trying this from now on, and see how well it works for me, with the meter set for "average".  If that doesn't work, I'll try "center weighted".  

With Nikon, I accepted the metering results as "fact".  With the m10, I've been considering them more as "suggestions".  There's a YouTube video that explains this in great detail - I'll search for it again.  ............so many things to remember...............

Spot and multi-spot metering only works with the EVF or live view using the LCD(?).  If you’re using the optical rangefinder, your only option is centre weighted.

Because centre weighting on the M cameras is a reflective reading off the shutter curtain (there’s a sensor inside the mount pointing back at the white and grey bands on the shutter curtain), rather than a reading off the sensor, it covers a reasonably wide area.  It is accurate and reliable, as far as it goes - you just need to get your head around what it is reading.

I have got into the habit of using the focus patch as a reference point, and that roughly works.  Because retaining highlights is the issue, and recovery from shadows less of a problem, I find Robert’s approach of exposing for the highlights, with -2/3 EV compensation works for me.  Certainly, being in manual mode makes all this much easier.  I guess an incident reading is the best option of all ...

[evikne]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

The reason for my getting the Leica in the first place was to give me MORE control over my images, and I need to force myself into NOT allowing the camera to make all the decisions my Nikon cameras typically did.

Just set everything manually. That will give you full control, and you'll never have to think about exposure compensation anymore. 😉

[robert blu]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Quick question - on my Nikon, I would have trusted this completely.  How well does this work with the exposure metering system on the Leica?   Which setting is your metering set for, "average", "center weighted", or "spot" ?   

I've done this for ages on simple cameras for sunset photos - aim camera at sunset sky, press shutter half way to lock exposure, lower camera, take photo.  I haven't had a chance to try this yet with the m10.  Wouldn't I need to change the metering to at least "center weighted" to use this effectively?  I'll start trying this from now on, and see how well it works for me, with the meter set for "average".  If that doesn't work, I'll try "center weighted".  

With Nikon, I accepted the metering results as "fact".  With the m10, I've been considering them more as "suggestions".  There's a YouTube video that explains this in great detail - I'll search for it again.  ............so many things to remember...............

I see IkarusJohn already answered better than I could do. Center weighted and it only needs some practice...practice...and practice again 🙂

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

Just set everything manually. That will give you full control, and you'll never have to think about exposure compensation anymore. 😉

👍 manual everything !

I'd add forget that f***** Auto-Iso then everything would be fine.

 

* funny Auto-Iso

[MikeMyers]

5 hours ago, evikne said:

Just set everything manually. That will give you full control, and you'll never have to think about exposure compensation anymore. 😉

I wrote that I wanted MORE control, not FULL control.  My brain is too busy with all the other things that I consider far more important.  The camera hasn't yet selected an ISO that caused problems for me, probably because I selected reasonable aperture and shutter settings.

I want to be thinking about composition; that's at the top of my list.  Aperture selects the depth of field, and shutter can keep things sharp, or not.  For me, if the ISO is 100 or 1,000, it doesn't really matter for the photos I take.

I know what you guys mean, and I don't disagree, but there's only so much that I can consider before taking the photo, and worrying about ISO seems like a waste of my efforts.   In special circumstances, that may not be the case.  

 

Let's assume I'm wrong.  So, what would I gain by manually trying to set the ISO speed, rather than letting the camera do it?

[evikne]

7 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Let's assume I'm wrong.  So, what would I gain by manually trying to set the ISO speed, rather than letting the camera do it?

If you are satisfied with the camera's choice of ISO and the exposure is correct, everything is fine and there is nothing wrong with that. But I assume the reason for this thread is that this isn't always the case. As soon as you let the camera decide anything (ISO or shutter speed), there is a risk that the exposure won't match your intentions. 

Taking full control with manual settings doesn't need to be so complicated. The easiest way is to see what the camera choose in Auto mode, and then manually set this parameter when you have seen the outcome of this setting. You can manually set the ISO up or down according to what you see on the display, and then you know the next image will be better. Even if the first result is OK, it can be useful to lock the camera's choice, because there is always a risk that the camera will think differently the next time. With manual settings everywhere, you can keep shooting without the risk of unintentional change of exposure and without the need to think of any more settings, as long as the ambient light is unchanged. 

And then you will have more time for composition and capturing the decisive moment, just the way you want.

[pgk]

8 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I wrote that I wanted MORE control, not FULL control.

Leica Rangefinders were originally designed for manual operation. Whilst they now offer some degrees of automation these are available because the original design only allows specific items to be automated - so the camera can be used in Aperture Priority or with Auto ISO and of course then Exposure Compensation can be utilised with these too (its absolutely irrelevant in Manual Mode and is the equivalent of setting a different ISO. Hoverer, to use these features with a Leica Rangefinder, requires considerable appreciation of the way the camera works. Sophisticated dSLRs or Mirrorless cameras were designed to use automation throughout if required, Leica Rangefinders were not. Trying to adjust a Leica Rangefinder to work 'automatically' in all situations requires as much user input as using it with Manual Exposure. Its really not difficult to use a Leica Rangefinder manually - that's how they were designed to work originally and they do so very well. I use Manual Exposure ALL the time and don't lose shots as a result. Light can change but often does not. A 'pre-shot' will always give you access to the histogram which will tell you what is going on with your exposure. Its really all quite straightforward.

[MikeMyers]

5 hours ago, evikne said:

If you are satisfied with the camera's choice of ISO and the exposure is correct, everything is fine and there is nothing wrong with that. But I assume the reason for this thread is that this isn't always the case. As soon as you let the camera decide anything (ISO or shutter speed), there is a risk that the exposure won't match your intentions.........

Actually, if you go back to the beginning of this thread, the problem was that I didn't understand how exposure compensation works on the m10.  I feel more comfortable with that now.

Maybe when I learn more, I'll change my mind, but if I select the aperture and shutter speed, and have exposure compensation if I know it will be needed, I pretty much do get my "intentions".  For me, if I tripled the ISO, or cut it down by 1/3, I don't think I would even notice.  The shutter and aperture would remain as selected (unless I had exposure comp to make things lighter or darker).  ..........and if things are really confusing, I can always set the camera to M(anual) mode, and select everything including ISO.

[MikeMyers]

4 hours ago, pgk said:

.........Trying to adjust a Leica Rangefinder to work 'automatically' in all situations requires as much user input as using it with Manual Exposure. Its really not difficult to use a Leica Rangefinder manually - that's how they were designed to work originally and they do so very well......

I have no desire to turn the m10 into a Nikon D750, where everything is selected by the computer.  Right now, I'l allowing the camera to select an ISO setting.  If I go back to my days with the m2 and m3, I had an exposure meter in my pocket or on top of the camera.  Actually, I bought a new Sekonic exposure meter after buying my m8.2 camera ten years ago. 

If I want to go to (M)anual mode, I might very well take out the meter to help me decide, but aperture would be set based on depth of field, and shutter speed would be set based on freezing motion.  Way back then, the idea of changing ASA speeds didn't really apply, as once I put the roll of film in, it was "fixed".  My Zeiss Contarex allows me to change film in the middle of the roll, but not the old Leica cameras.

As of this week, my exposures have been more appropriate with the ISO set to (A) than the previous week when I was shooting in (M).  I didn't have my meter with me, which probably would have made a big difference, and the light was constantly changing, as the sun went in and out between the clouds.

 

I disagree with your last sentence " Its really not difficult to use a Leica Rangefinder manually - that's how they were designed to work originally and they do so very well......".   Maybe long ago I was used to these things, and could select a good set of Aperture and Shutter, but 40 or 50 years of Nikonization have allowed me to lose that information.  You would be completely correct, once I re-learn how to make the appropriate settings, but as of today, it would be nothing more than a guess -- UNLESS I HAD A METER.  With a good meter, I agree with you completely, and maybe that's where my future is going to go.   I dunno.....

 

"Anything is easy to do, once you know how to do it."      :-)

Edited March 5, 2020 by MikeMyers

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[pgk]

I often guesstimate exposure (that said I never shift from base ISO relying on post processing rather than in camera amplification☺️) and it is surprising how good such guesstimates can be. The problem with auto ISO is that it basically shifts the exposure by relying on amplification of the sensor information in camera and there is no going back from this exposure. I've used all sorts of cameras but I still find a manually operate Leica Rangefinder to be the easiest of all. Practice, practice, practice.

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

I disagree with your last sentence " Its really not difficult to use a Leica Rangefinder manually - that's how they were designed to work originally and they do so very well......".   Maybe long ago I was used to these things, and could select a good set of Aperture and Shutter, but 40 or 50 years of Nikonization have allowed me to lose that information.  You would be completely correct, once I re-learn how to make the appropriate settings, but as of today, it would be nothing more than a guess -- UNLESS I HAD A METER.  With a good meter, I agree with you completely, and maybe that's where my future is going to go.   I dunno.....

Hi Mike,

Form the look of your photos, I think you are getting the hang of this exposure thing quite well. That being said, I agree with pgk(Paul), its almost too easy to shoot in manual with an M. 

In broad daylight set your ISO to 200 for the least amount of noise, turn your lens and aperture till only the red dot appears in the viewfinder, dot plus right triangle equals .5 stop over. Right triangle alone means you are at least one stop over. the opposite applies for the left triangle.

LEAVE YOUR METER AT HOME 😀!!  Since the M 240, the values are no longer the same so your exposure will be of if you rely on a handheld. Try it and at least you will no how many stops you are off.