Monochrom M - lenses and future ?

[Jeff S]

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3 hours ago, hydet said:

The reality is that a better camera will make your older lenses look better, not the other way around.  

If one defines better as technically better (resolution, etc).  Some might prefer the rendering that an older, poorly corrected lens might provide, but still want the handling or other benefits of a newer platform.  They work in tandem, as Roger C. articulates. 

Jeff

[onasj]

In my experience, the M10M resolves more detail with many of Leica's better lenses than the M10-P.  These lenses include the current versions of the 28 lux, 35 lux, 50 Noct, 50 lux, 50 APO, 75 APO, and 75 Noct—all tested wide open. Haven't tried 16, 18, 21, 90 or 135 mm focal lengths yet. The 50 Noct wide open surprised me, given that there are many sharper lens-aperture combinations in Leica's stable. 40.8 MP is not surpassing the benefits offered by these lenses.

[shirubadanieru]

21 hours ago, otto.f said:

Exactly 

Why is that? I think my 35mm v1 Summicron looks better on the MM1 than the M10M; would love to hear the reasoning behind that

[a.noctilux]

5 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

Why is that? I think my 35mm v1 Summicron looks better on the MM1 than the M10M; would love to hear the reasoning behind that

May it be the infamous CCD/CMOS war ?

I don't have M10M, but I've seen some differences in global rendering with same lens (including Summicron 35mm I "8 element" ) between MM1 and M246.

I do accept that and this doesn't bother me at all.

[shirubadanieru]

12 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

May it be the infamous CCD/CMOS war ?

I don't have M10M, but I've seen some differences in global rendering with same lens (including Summicron 35mm I "8 element" ) between MM1 and M246.

I do accept that and this doesn't bother me at all.

Yeah just wondering why he said a higher pixel sensor make old lenses look better. I still think the 8e looks good and sharp on the M10M but not necessarily better than on the MM1

[otto.f]

It has been discussed here earlier and I think at the most when the M240 came out, Adan has explained it clearly. From M8 to M10 we see an increase in dynamic range. The longer the range the less bite you see in your images before PP. This is not precisely related to CMOS, but to DR as such. If you look closely you even see a difference between M8 and M9 in this respect

Edited February 17, 2020 by otto.f

[shirubadanieru]

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I shared this in the M10M & old lens thread too but I can see the impact of a larger sensor in my old lens for sure as stated here.

The latest 5 shots here in my flickr gallery were all shot wide open with the Summicron 35mm 8e! At f2, I have never seen this lens perform like this, and I’ve owned it for several years now. This camera makes lenses that are generally soft wide open when shot with other cameras suddenly become extremely sharp to a point it seems they were shot using an f4 aperture instead! I’m pretty blown away. I used to avoid shooting the 8e wide open unless I specifically wanted to have the glow / softness show through, but it seems that now I can use it at f2 without any concerns. That’s both good and bad, but mostly positive I’d say as the old style bokeh is still there and I get to have a sharper focus area, but I just have to get used to this new reality. 

What are your thoughts after seeing the pics wide open, especially if you have used the 8e elements before and know its signature wide open?
 

[UliWer]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb shirubadanieru:

The latest 5 shots here in my flickr gallery were all shot wide open with the Summicron 35mm 8e!

Was the photo with many stickers on a plate also done with the 8 elements Summicron?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/148006815@N08/49541551136/

If it was taken with this lens, I see a certain "danger" to apply too much contrast to the photos. This subdues the special character of old lenses and they look like a modern one. This is not the case for the last 5 pictures you are referring to. They actually don't look "extemely sharp", just like one would expect them with the lens, without the "problem" of washed out colors which often can be seen as a detraction. 

 

[shirubadanieru]

32 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Was the photo with many stickers on a plate also done with the 8 elements Summicron?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/148006815@N08/49541551136/

If it was taken with this lens, I see a certain "danger" to apply too much contrast to the photos. This subdues the special character of old lenses and they look like a modern one. This is not the case for the last 5 pictures you are referring to. They actually don't look "extemely sharp", just like one would expect them with the lens, without the "problem" of washed out colors which often can be seen as a detraction. 

 

Yup all pics there are with the 8e, but the sticker one if I’m not wrong was shot at either f2.8 or f4. The last five shots I purposely shot them wide open. The M10M to my eyes definitely makes this lens look more modern, I’ve shot it with the m9 / m240 / m9m / film and the character especially wide open is more visible. With the M10M the bokeh is still the nice classic bokeh but instead of being soft and glowy on the center it’s sharp (not to a point that makes it look like an asph lens which I don’t like but definitely sharper than with the other cameras). I was definitely not expecting this and it’s a new look I have to get used to. Positive side is that I rarely shot the 8e at f2 unless I was looking for that specific look, now I feel I can without any restrictions; the negative side is that the lens loses some of it’s uniqueness. I’m looking forward to testing the 50mm lux v1 once I get it back from CLA. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by shirubadanieru

[UliWer]

Well, I think that only a side by side comparison of the results taken with a certain lens of  an identical subject under identical conditions with different cameras might reveal if here are differences. All I know from normal "color" cameras is, that the camera does not play a role when you look for any typical characteristics of a lens. The character either shows or it doesn't -  with both cameras. Though I might stand corrected that this is different for monochrom cameras. I am sure that postprocessing - especially increasing contrast - is much more important.

[shirubadanieru]

Yeah I’m not a pixel peeper or have ever done any comparison tests, so I’m simply talking from experience of using the 35mm 8e as my main lens for shooting mostly every week for about 5 years; it definitely feels like a whole new lens with the M10 Monochrom when compared to any other digital Leica I’ve tried so far (and I tried them all). Actually the only camera I have now is the M10M and M4 so cant really do any comparison tests even if I wanted to...the M9M also depicted old lenses in a great, unique way different to the M9, but with the M10M this difference in rendering is even more noticeable in terms of sharpness; my only suggestion is to try it for yourself with your old lens and to also ask more people here (who may have old lenses) to share their observations. 

[otto.f]

2 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

.the M9M also depicted old lenses in a great, unique way different to the M9, but with the M10M this difference in rendering is even more noticeable in terms of sharpness

Now I lost you, in another thread you were saying that you're disappointed with the M10M compared to M9M

[shirubadanieru]

10 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Now I lost you, in another thread you were saying that you're disappointed with the M10M compared to M9M

Yeah I didn’t say I prefer the extra sharpness of the M10M compared to the M9M; just said their have different renderings. Rendering wise I still feel the M9M is the best digital Leica, especially when combined with old lens. With the M10M, my 8e renders in a less classic manner and looks sharper when I compare to how it renders with other digital Leicas I’ve tried...but as I get used to the M10M I’m starting to enjoy its files more than I did in week 1. Plus the benefits of high ISO with the ability to use the 8e wide open delivering sharp results has been a new experience. Do I prefer that to the more unique / classical rendering of the M9M? No...but, as a whole package, the M10M is the better camera and probably the one I will keep.

Edited February 20, 2020 by shirubadanieru

[fotografr]

On 2/17/2020 at 3:49 AM, shirubadanieru said:

Why is that? I think my 35mm v1 Summicron looks better on the MM1 than the M10M; would love to hear the reasoning behind that

Define "looks better." Are you referring to sharpness, contrast, tonal range? Your experience is the opposite of mine. I have several lenses that I've used with the MM1, M246 and now the M10M. The image quality I see with those same lenses on the M10M is clearly superior in my opinion.

[fotografr]

On 2/12/2020 at 7:31 PM, Jeff S said:

The M10M sensor was derived from the S3 (the same way the M240 sensor came from the S007).  Nicci explains this well in other thread discussions.  The M10M sensor will also be shared with the forthcoming M10R.  In this case, however, the monochrome version was released before the color version.

Jeff

This is contrary to statements released by Leica in their own adverts and to reviewers. The only similarity between the S3 sensor and the M10M sensor is that they were both developed by the same company in Belgium. According to Leica, both sensors were specifically developed for their respective cameras and in the case of the M10 M sensor, there "is no colour counterpart." This differs from previous Monochrom models which did, in fact, derive their sensors from existing color versions . In those cases the same sensors were simply produced without the color filter array.

With regard to the S3, Leica have stated that the sensor was developed from the ground up specifically for that camera, and I tend to believe such statements from them.

Edited March 7, 2020 by fotografr

[Jeff S]

11 minutes ago, fotografr said:

This is contrary to statements released by Leica in their own adverts and to reviewers. The only similarity between the S3 sensor and the M10M sensor is that they were both developed by the same company in Belgium. According to Leica, both sensors were specifically developed for their respective cameras and in the case of the M10 M sensor, there "is no colour counterpart." This differs from previous Monochrom models which did, in fact, derive their sensors from existing color versions . In those cases the same sensors were simply produced without the color filter array.

With regard to the S3, Leica have stated that the sensor was developed from the ground up specifically for that camera, and I tend to believe such statements from them.

No doubt the sensor was optimized for the camera, but it was derived from the same wafer as the S3, as Nicci explained in these two posts...

Note, too, the last paragraph in the second post regarding the M10M and M10R. 

Leica says a lot of things, like marketing the S007 and prior S models as 16 bIt color.  The S3 is now described as 14 bIt color. The S3 is the same in this regard as prior models, just without the hyperbole.

No doubt the M10M was optimized for b/w, but production economies of scale also mandate sharing of key sensor characteristics across platforms... even sometimes across companies (Sony 50 MP sensor shared by Hasselblad, Fuji, Pentax, etc).  And yet the ads from those three companies tout the unique aspects of the performance of their sensors.  Marketing often demands extreme statements, and while true to some extent, the facts are usually more complex.

Jeff

[fotografr]

12 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Marketing often demands extreme statements, and while true to some extent, the facts are usually more complex.

Jeff

No offense to nicci78, but I have no idea what his credentials are so until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll believe what Leica management have stated about the sensors in both the M10M and S3, that they were specifically created for each camera. I've read nothing from Leica about any shared technology between the two.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/03/leica-s3-64mp-medium-format-camera-now-shipping/?utm_source=Leica+Store+Miami+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=545e634d23-2020_03_06_s3_announced&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_936a8848e0-545e634d23-395658477&mc_cid=545e634d23&mc_eid=61d83dff93

Edited March 8, 2020 by fotografr

[Jeff S]

Nicci explains it... you should read what he says more carefully.  Or maybe you think that Leica invested in a totally separate sensor, with no economies of scale, for a niche of a niche of a niche product.  I hardly think you’d be paying a measly $8k.  Two things can be simultaneously true... built for specific purpose, but with common foundation.   Leica didn’t lie, but there’s a healthy dose of marketing.  Just like a 16 bIt color S.  How do you think that happens?

Jeff

[fotografr]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Nicci explains it... you should read what he says more carefully.  Or maybe you think that Leica invested in a totally separate sensor...

I did carefully read what he surmised, and what you speculated. I choose to believe the statements from Leica rather than a couple of people making educated guesses. Neither of you have any idea what Leica's R & D costs are for their sensors or how many cameras they're producing to spread those costs over. Therefore everything you say about this issue is sheer conjecture.

It's likely the sensor that was developed for the M10M will employ a CFA for use in the M10R, which would spread the cost out even more. But as of now, that sensor has no colour counterpart.

Edited March 8, 2020 by fotografr

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[Jeff S]

37 minutes ago, fotografr said:

It's likely the sensor that was developed for the M10M will employ a CFA for use in the M10R, which would spread the cost out even more.

Indeed, and the M10R will be optimized just as the M10M was optimized.  Just as the S3 was initially optimized for a larger sensor (but same pixel pitch, etc). Again, Leica didn’t lie; they just didn’t reveal the whole story.  Leica was smart to begin this sensor sharing foundation with the S007, which shared economies with the M240 and M246.  Smart business in a tough industry.  Why do you think even bigger companies than Leica (Sony and Fuji, along with Pentax and Hasselblad) have shared the same Sony 50MP sensor?  And of course each optimizes  it for their own needs... but don’t advertise the common foundation.  The base sensor is only a start, but it’s a start.

And again, I use the S system bit depth parallel. Leica didn’t lie when they advertised 16 bIt color depth (anymore than Hasselblad claimed 16 bits with the X1D); more like 14 bits in a 16 bIt container.  Just a simplified story... it’s called marketing.

Jeff