Images from Panasonic L-Mount cameras

[Fedro]

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the M is not competition to the SL and I really do not think that IBIS is a must on a rangefinder, not the way I use it (mostly lenses between 28-50)

Sure, probably a must have if you use it for Macro, mammoth lenses, super low light and adapted long zooms, but ... why?

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[Chaemono]

I disagree on the M11 having IBIS because Stephan Schulz in the same Overgaard interview here http://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601-Leica-SL-Small-Camera-Large-Print-and-Large-Lenses.html indirectly denies it. And I’m glad it won’t. It keeps the   M body nice and slim. Most M lenses are small and light and can be shot at below 1/f with acceptable sharpness. I’m not 100 percent convinced that Sony isn’t compromising performance of its excellent sensors by putting IBIS in the tiny α7x series. They probably use some clever algorithms to deal with the noise from processor heat but there must be some performance degradation. When I compare images at ISO 200-640 with the M10 (same lens), for example, I always prefer the M10 output. And now that I have an S1, I prefer the S1 output at ISO 12800, for example, (it’s not the MPx noise). There’s something funny showing in the Sony pictures sometimes, it’s sporadic, not always there, and I can’t tell what it’s due. The Sony sensors are great, but this heat thing keeps haunting me.

On an additionally serious note, Sony announced a couple of days ago a 100 MPx FF sensor that they will make available to third parties. This has me worried because in the Overgaard interview I linked, Peter Karbe answers the question on how high the MPx in the SL can go before they need to improve the lens design in the following way:

Karbe: For the Leica SL, it’s 100 megapixels.

Overgaard: 100 megapixels?

Karbe: Yeah. No problem.

You got to be sh!tting me! Coincidence? I hope so, because that won’t be Leica organic high ISO “grain” we will be looking at in low light situations. But then the SL2 will have IBIS, so no need to go that high in ISO, I guess.

 

 

 

[jrp]

100Mpx is useful only on the tripod; hand-held, you are just going to be recording noise.

[Chaemono]

So, only for niche FF cameras with niche applications. But users might as well use MF then, like Vieri does. I don’t see a market for a FF 100 MPx sensor unless it can be used handheld with IBIS. It’s a risky development by Sony with potentially damaging write off for capitalized R&D. 

[thighslapper]

The M series will never have IBIS because it doesn't fit in with the 'M' philosophy ...... even if they could shrink down the mechanism to fit in the body. Everything about the M and it's digital development has been about keeping it close to the original film camera but with a digital sensor. 

You will not get a sensor with IBIS in the current SL body..... and the only stated changes in the form factor are that 'it will be less brutal' ..... which to me means the same but with some rounded corners. Battery size/power, heat and processing requirements are the limiting factors in this technology ..... and unless you adopt Panasonics approach and let the body expand to accommodate the electronics then something will have to go or be compromised. 

What Sony manage to squeeze into the A7Riii is a miracle ...... and Leica is not Sony .....

[Chaemono]

Less brutal = same size with rounded corners. Interesting. 

[helged]

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1 hour ago, thighslapper said:

... Battery size/power, heat and processing requirements are the limiting factors in this technology ..... and unless you adopt Panasonics approach and let the body expand to accommodate the electronics then something will have to go or be compromised. 

What Sony manage to squeeze into the A7Riii is a miracle ...... and Leica is not Sony .....

And thanks for that ...

Edited April 3, 2019 by helged

[mmradman]

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

>>snip<<

What Sony manage to squeeze into the A7Riii is a miracle ...... and Leica is not Sony .....

Not only Sony...I have part exchanged my SL for Z7,  absolutely no regrets as i never owned any L lenses.

Z7 body excluding EVF protrusion and hand grip is the same size as M film camera. Received Novoflex M-Z adaptor and both M and R lesnes (via Leica R-M adaptor stacked) work like a charm with Z7's IBIS.  

Enjoy your S1/S1R  and SL's.

 

 

[ron777]

The conversation regarding what the SL2 will, or will not be/have is amusing speculation, but what I find even more intriguing are the lack of informative, albeit, hints coming from the Leica company.

Speculation has frequently benefitted the camera marketers, as it has drummed up interest and anticipation for their next prodigy,  but Leica’s situation is somewhat different.  The “L” Alliance has created a lifeboat, in the form of Panasonic’s “S” series, that has the potential to motivate some former Leica acolytes to jump ship.  And in the absence of any real course and heading directive coming from the Captain (Leica AG), loyalty may be waning.

As for body size and the feasibility of IBIS, one only has to examine the Sony line which is replete with small, FF, IBIS equipped bodies.  

Edited April 3, 2019 by ron777

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb ron777:

The “L” Alliance has created a lifeboat, in the form of Panasonic’s “S” series, that has the potential to motivate some former Leica acolytes to jump ship.  And in the absence of any real course and heading directive coming from the Captain (Leica AG), loyalty may be waning.

Users have already jumped ship. I sold my SL to my Leica dealer. He was willing to buy it. I told him that I bought into Panasonic. He seemed very relaxed and didn’t divulge anything about the SL2, well, almost. Made me a bit suspicious. 

[ron777]

I have yet to do so, as the S1R has not begun to ship in the US, but I am poised to let the SL go.  Did you receive a reasonable amount for your SL?

[thighslapper]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

 Made me a bit suspicious. 

yes..... the pessimists amongst use assume that the SL2 will be an incremental upgrade ...... but we all forget that the SL was in fact a bit of a quantum leap at the time ... certainly as far as Leica was concerned. Being optimistic they may well repeat themselves. 

However I am a realist and stuck in today, not the future ..... so the S1R will do nicely for now .....

[Chaemono]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb ron777:

Did you receive a reasonable amount for your SL?

No, but not because of the Panasonic bodies. We had agreed on the price and the sale once the SL2 would be out. Now there is no SL2 in sight, so I got the S1 instead and went ahead and exercized my "put option." I would have expected some information about SL2 at that point, especially since the Q2 has been introduced now. But they seemed very secretive and almost eerily relaxed about it. Gave me a bit of a funny feeling. BTW, the store is owned by Leica and is about 44 miles away from Wetzlar. 😁 

[ron777]

Interesting.

I have no such option—stopped trading options a long time ago—but their reaction seems a bit odd.  

Was the proprietor suggesting that he held privileged information?  I wouldn't worry, might just have been his reaction to loosing a customer.  And even if Leica is planning to announce an SL2 in June, the release will likely occur sometime much later.  But at some point we, as consumers/photographers, have to settle down to recording images rather than gassing over technology.  And what could they possibly have in the hopper—other than more pixels—that could technologically and economically top your S1?   That said, I'm willing to eat my words, should they release a tiny camera capable of producing holographic images that can be wirelessly transmitted to and instantly displayed by galleries around the world. OK, I agree, not gonna happen ... this century. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by ron777

[caissa]

Not all reactions are the same. I am glad that there is now a capable camera if my SL should fail. And I like the idea of producing high res images. So all the continuing complaints about missing resolution have now finally stopped.

But I have very few occasions to use the maximum resolution, and currently no plans to print very big. So I feel no rush to get the S1R ASAP. I feel good simply waiting for price adjustments, more experiences with future lenses and the general notion of compatibility. And maybe an idea or two what to do regarding M lenses.

Generally I like using the SL knowing that there is something “better” (ibis, highres) up my sleeve.  😎

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ron777:

Was the proprietor suggesting that he held privileged information? 

No, of course not, but they also run the Leitz-Park store in Wetzlar and go back and forth during the week. I guess they may occasionally run into Dr. Kaufmann there. As I said, they seemed eerily quite about the SL2 and very relaxed about those Panasonics. They didn’t know when the SL2 would be released, they hope before year end, nor what sensor it would use. So, the two big mysteries remain the release date and the sensor specs. 😁

Edited April 4, 2019 by Chaemono

[bags27]

I have heard, FWIW, that there are an astonishing 1/4 M pre-orders for the Q2. I have no idea if this is correct and, if so, whether Leica anticipated this and what it means to its production capacity generally. But given how in the past Leica has had production challenges, the push to move the Q2 to customers ASAP could conceivably slow down the final development and production of the SL2.

(sorry for the emboldened small type and double spacing; it seems untoggleable for me right now)

 

[relms]

10 minutes ago, bags27 said:

I have heard, FWIW, that there are an astonishing 1/4 M pre-orders for the Q2. I have no idea if this is correct and, if so, whether Leica anticipated this and what it means to its production capacity generally. But given how in the past Leica has had production challenges, the push to move the Q2 to customers ASAP could conceivably slow down the final development and production of the SL2.

(sorry for the emboldened small type and double spacing; it seems untoggleable for me right now)

 

Make that 249,999; I took my name off the Q2 wait list a few days ago. 🤨

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[LeicaGuy2014]

I gave up my spot for the Q2 at my local Leica store, too! Now awaiting delivery of the S1R ... 

[relms]

31 minutes ago, LeicaGuy2014 said:

I gave up my spot for the Q2 at my local Leica store, too! Now awaiting delivery of the S1R ... 

I received an email this evening from Adorama notifying me that my S1R has shipped to arrive tomorrow.  The extra battery and grip arrived yesterday.