Underexposure and black frame issue of M240

[clngood]

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9 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

The replacement did once produce a 'black frame' but I could not justify sending it to Germany for 8W, which at the time was the usual response from Leica for service/repairs, so I ignored it. 

 

Yeah, I agree, that does sound unreasonable.

And you were talking about user error in continuous shutter. What is that?

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[Steve Ricoh]

59 minutes ago, clngood said:

Yeah, I agree, that does sound unreasonable.

And you were talking about user error in continuous shutter. What is that?

It's not my norm to use continuous shutter mode. If I do it's because I've rotated the switch beyond the single setting. I hate having to decide between images A, B,C...

The user error I think I mentioned was to do with 'user' exposure judgement. In aperture priority the centre weighted light meter can be misled. It's up to the user to point the lens where he/she wishes to base the exposure measurement. I also have a backup Sekonic spot / incident meter. This error has nothing to do with the camera being faulty. Hope I didn't confuse you.

[clngood]

54 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

It's not my norm to use continuous shutter mode. If I do it's because I've rotated the switch beyond the single setting. I hate having to decide between images A, B,C...

The user error I think I mentioned was to do with 'user' exposure judgement. In aperture priority the centre weighted light meter can be misled. It's up to the user to point the lens where he/she wishes to base the exposure measurement. I also have a backup Sekonic spot / incident meter. This error has nothing to do with the camera being faulty. Hope I didn't confuse you.

I see. My issue never happens when i'm doing single shooting, always in continuous shooting or successive shots, and I also feel my situation is a bit different from yours and the others'. Because it's either underexposure or black frame (both in aperture priority and Manual ), and the rest of you guys are more likely to have black frames only if I didn't get it wrong? Maybe because my firmware (2.0.6.0)  is the latest and it kinda restrains the issue but only half way? Just my guess, what do you think?

Edited January 26, 2020 by clngood

[Steve Ricoh]

1 hour ago, clngood said:

I see. My issue never happens when i'm doing single shooting, always in continuous shooting or successive shots, and I also feel my situation is a bit different from yours and the others'. Because it's either underexposure or black frame (both in aperture priority and Manual ), and the rest of you guys are more likely to have black frames only if I didn't get it wrong? Maybe because my firmware (2.0.6.0)  is the latest and it kinda restrains the issue but only half way? Just my guess, what do you think?

This is way beyond my very limited knowledge of the M240, TBH. I would just add this: I could always preempt the 'black frame' mishap by the unusual sound of the shutter, as if only part of the curtain fired.

Do you hear any difference when the black frame occurs? Also, is the underexposure consistent across the frame of is it graded L-R or T-B (not sure how the shutter operates, but I'm led to believe it's a two stage curtain).

[clngood]

7 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

This is way beyond my very limited knowledge of the M240, TBH. I would just add this: I could always preempt the 'black frame' mishap by the unusual sound of the shutter, as if only part of the curtain fired.

Do you hear any difference when the black frame occurs? Also, is the underexposure consistent across the frame of is it graded L-R or T-B (not sure how the shutter operates, but I'm led to believe it's a two stage curtain).

I noticed that when I'm doing successive shots, very often I press the shutter (not the first shot) and it doesn't give you the "Kacha" sound that you would usually get, and when this happens, it doesn't really capture a picture, or the shutter is pressed and the "Kacha" sound is delayed for 1 or 2 seconds, but when it's delay, it will capture a picture.

 As for underexposure, it's always the only one among a dozen of successive or continuous shots, so you can easily tell that one is different.

[Steve Ricoh]

I think if it bothers you, and you can manage without the camera for a while, you should consider sending it to Leica service. I would recommend enclosing the SD card to allow them to examine the effect, whilst also interrogating the internal data log in one of the memory locations. 

[clngood]

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7 hours ago, Steve Ricoh said:

I think if it bothers you, and you can manage without the camera for a while, you should consider sending it to Leica service. I would recommend enclosing the SD card to allow them to examine the effect, whilst also interrogating the internal data log in one of the memory locations. 

Thanks, will do.

I think I have same issue with this guy 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by clngood

[david strachan]

I've had a couple, or more really, blank frames from my M240 (M-P), and from both of my M8's.  I can tell from the shutter-recocking sound before I review...so I take the picture again.  If I can't get exactly the same picture, I just move on without going into paroxisms of anguish.

Just a foible and not worth worrying once in a thousand exposures.

 

I've even had 36 pictures all blank on my M6 (once) 😲...but just too bad. Pity I wanted those images in Singapore.  Now I load more carefully and happy to wind-on twice more to make sure film has grabbed. And very diligently watch the take-up rewind making sure it rotates as I wind the next frame.

 

Spilt milk and just move on, really.

[khs1628]

Steve Ricoh는 오후 7시 22 분 2시 1/206에 다음과 같이 말했습니다.

아마도 2015/2016의 토론에 기여했을 것입니다. Leica가 M240의 셔터를 교체했습니다. 카메라에 오류 로그가 저장되어 있고 오류 코드에 셔터 결함이 있음을 알리는 메시지가 표시되었습니다. 카메라가 돌아온 후 몇 주 안에 새로운 셔터로 완성되었지만 여전히 검은 색 프레임을 주기적으로 기록하는 것과 같습니다. 소비자 권리 행위를 인용했을 때 공급 업체가 카메라로 교체했습니다. 

BTW, 연속 셔터를 사용하는 경우는 거의 없으며, 선택기 노브를 돌릴 때 주로 오류가 발생합니다. 위에서 설명한 문제는 단일 노출을 선택한 상태에서 발생했습니다.

 

 

Hello Steve Ricoh, I’m using M typ 240. I am sending a message to you be cause I’ve been experiencing what people called ‘Black Frame’ and I found what you wrote on the internet and wanted to ask for your help. 

My m240 is developing more and more of Black Frame.

I found out that you sent your camera to Germany, do you still get those problems in present? If you have found the spacific reason for this, I kindly ask you if could you tell me what it is?

[Steve Ricoh]

1 hour ago, khs1628 said:

Hello Steve Ricoh, I’m using M typ 240. I am sending a message to you be cause I’ve been experiencing what people called ‘Black Frame’ and I found what you wrote on the internet and wanted to ask for your help. 

My m240 is developing more and more of Black Frame.

I found out that you sent your camera to Germany, do you still get those problems in present? If you have found the spacific reason for this, I kindly ask you if could you tell me what it is?

Hi, no problem.

The original M240 that I owned was sent back to Leica for investigation subsequent to it exhibiting the ‘black frame’ phenomenon. This was in 2015, and at the rate of approximately 1 in 100 shutter button actuations there was an incomplete operation of the shutter (I’m informed it’s a two stage operation, similar to, but not exactly the same as, the shutter curtains we’re familiar with) and the black frame resulted, ie no exposure. It was clear from the noise made by the shutter when it occurred. Leica investigated the error log recorded by the camera and I was informed it was a defective shutter mechanism and the shutter was replaced. The camera arrived back 8 weeks later. Unfortunately the black frame had not been rectified as I found out in a matter of a few weeks of use. I rejected the camera under UK consumer law and a replacement was provided by the supplying dealer. Fingers crossed, I’ve only had one or two black frames with the replacement in the last four years of use.

hope this helps.

[convexferret]

I'll just add in my own anecdotal evidence on this. I have an M246 and every 1000 or so frames I'll take a shot, the shutter will not fire completely (it moves but there's definitely not a full shutter cycle) and I'll get a black frame. The shot immediately afterwards will work fine. I don't use continuous and don't shoot rapidly most of the time. It just seems to be a "quirk" of the camera software and/or hardware and given the number of reports I'm not confident that a service will fix something that's never bothered me that much. It's done this since new and definitely not got any worse over the 3 years or so of ownership.

[khs1628]

3 hours ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Hi, no problem.

The original M240 that I owned was sent back to Leica for investigation subsequent to it exhibiting the ‘black frame’ phenomenon. This was in 2015, and at the rate of approximately 1 in 100 shutter button actuations there was an incomplete operation of the shutter (I’m informed it’s a two stage operation, similar to, but not exactly the same as, the shutter curtains we’re familiar with) and the black frame resulted, ie no exposure. It was clear from the noise made by the shutter when it occurred. Leica investigated the error log recorded by the camera and I was informed it was a defective shutter mechanism and the shutter was replaced. The camera arrived back 8 weeks later. Unfortunately the black frame had not been rectified as I found out in a matter of a few weeks of use. I rejected the camera under UK consumer law and a replacement was provided by the supplying dealer. Fingers crossed, I’ve only had one or two black frames with the replacement in the last four years of use.

hope this helps.

thank you so much  it helped a lot, my warranty is already over now....so i guess i can't do anything about it  

[khs1628]

3 hours ago, convexferret said:

I'll just add in my own anecdotal evidence on this. I have an M246 and every 1000 or so frames I'll take a shot, the shutter will not fire completely (it moves but there's definitely not a full shutter cycle) and I'll get a black frame. The shot immediately afterwards will work fine. I don't use continuous and don't shoot rapidly most of the time. It just seems to be a "quirk" of the camera software and/or hardware and given the number of reports I'm not confident that a service will fix something that's never bothered me that much. It's done this since new and definitely not got any worse over the 3 years or so of ownership.

i hope mine doesn't get worse...  

[Steve Ricoh]

34 minutes ago, khs1628 said:

thank you so much  it helped a lot, my warranty is already over now....so i guess i can't do anything about it  

Oh I don’t know, it’s a known problem so hopefully Leica will rectify the problem. Write to them (email) stating what you know.

[250swb]

FWIW when I had my M240 I also had the occasional black frame and decided in my own mind it was happening only when I woke the camera up quickly by firing the shutter (so the camera was effectively 'drousey' and not fully awake), or during continuous shooting and the buffer filled, which I put down to both the processor speed of the camera/and or the card. So maybe the whole 'black frame' thing could be a card problem and the camera isn't communicating with it quickly or consistently enough. Whether it could be solved with a slower card, or a faster card, I didn't get around to trying, but I didn't send the camera back to Leica because it became 'just one of those things' anyway, possible a simple result of Leica's antediluvian electronics and obviously not unusual considering the plethora of similar black frame reports.

[Steve Ricoh]

36 minutes ago, 250swb said:

FWIW when I had my M240 I also had the occasional black frame and decided in my own mind it was happening only when I woke the camera up quickly by firing the shutter (so the camera was effectively 'drousey' and not fully awake), or during continuous shooting and the buffer filled, which I put down to both the processor speed of the camera/and or the card. So maybe the whole 'black frame' thing could be a card problem and the camera isn't communicating with it quickly or consistently enough. Whether it could be solved with a slower card, or a faster card, I didn't get around to trying, but I didn't send the camera back to Leica because it became 'just one of those things' anyway, possible a simple result of Leica's antediluvian electronics and obviously not unusual considering the plethora of similar black frame reports.

I was informed, by those who should know, that the camera keeps an error log to be interrogated as necessary by the service dept. Without repeating my earlier text, this confirmed a shutter error. Maybe I was very unlucky and had two defective shutters in the same camera.

It does dent one’s confidence and I still wait for that dreaded misfire even though I have a replacement camera. 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, Steve Ricoh said:

I was informed, by those who should know, that the camera keeps an error log to be interrogated as necessary by the service dept. Without repeating my earlier text, this confirmed a shutter error. Maybe I was very unlucky and had two defective shutters in the same camera.

It does dent one’s confidence and I still wait for that dreaded misfire even though I have a replacement camera. 

Well, yes, a shutter error, the shutter fired before the rest of the camera had woken up or before it had sufficiently cleared a slow buffer. You have to understand that if there is a priority that Leica would instigate in their cameras it is for the camera to shoot without a significant delay, and it does this most of the time.

[Steve Ricoh]

39 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Well, yes, a shutter error, the shutter fired before the rest of the camera had woken up or before it had sufficiently cleared a slow buffer. You have to understand that if there is a priority that Leica would instigate in their cameras it is for the camera to shoot without a significant delay, and it does this most of the time.

Ok but Leica must know their product well enough to differentiate between the camera being ‘ready’ as you say, and the error log / confirmatory testing to confirm the shutter is or was intermittent.

incidentally, I’m not the sort of person to rush from switch on to firing the shutter. Unheard of in my world. Also I do not use the continuous setting.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Steve Ricoh

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[250swb]

40 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

incidentally, I’m not the sort of person to rush from switch on to firing the shutter. Unheard of in my world. Also I do not use the continuous setting.

Obviously not in the traditional Leica photojournalist market then, speed being the main ingredient that made the legend of the M camera over the years. But then I often stick my Leica on a tripod so making rules of 'this doesn't apply to me' seems to be blinkered when it comes to black frames. I got them in both fast and slow situations with the proviso of what I said about the wake up cycle between camera and card which could cover both situations.

I mean how simple can this be, people aren't getting black frames because the shutter didn't fire, they can hear it fire, it is because nothing was recorded, the shutter wasn't in sync with the software and recording process, just like a flash gun set at a speed the camera can't record. So 'shutter fault' is only the front end of the problem, not the solution, like the car engine that stops unexpectedly, and the mechanic asks 'have you got any petrol in the tank?'

[Steve Ricoh]

8 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Obviously not in the traditional Leica photojournalist market then, speed being the main ingredient that made the legend of the M camera over the years. But then I often stick my Leica on a tripod so making rules of 'this doesn't apply to me' seems to be blinkered when it comes to black frames. I got them in both fast and slow situations with the proviso of what I said about the wake up cycle between camera and card which could cover both situations.

I mean how simple can this be, people aren't getting black frames because the shutter didn't fire, they can hear it fire, it is because nothing was recorded, the shutter wasn't in sync with the software and recording process, just like a flash gun set at a speed the camera can't record. So 'shutter fault' is only the front end of the problem, not the solution, like the car engine that stops unexpectedly, and the mechanic asks 'have you got any petrol in the tank?'

No, the shutter had a distinct and different sound. I knew precisely when a non-exposure was in process. No doubt, not even worth checking. But sure enough the SD card would confirm a massively underexposed frame, ie black.

I will leave it here, thank you.