Do we finally have a new Monochrome - Yes I think so...

[olegn]

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3 minutes ago, otto.f said:

You mean M10-DM  no? I thought that shutter is the most silent

no, i was talking about the difference of shutter sound between M10 and M10P

[Keith (M)]

So far I have resisted the lure of the Monochrom versions, but the temptations offered by an M7-sized digital monochrome hi-res camera might be too much to resist.  But then what to do with my M7, MP (alc) and R5?  A M10-M would make it hard to find the time to continue with 35mm b&w film (lots of it in the freezer!).  My New Year's resolution was "shoot more film" and so far this year I have used (and developed) seven rolls of 120 in my Hasselblad but the roll of film in my M7 is so far unused.  Which obviously leads to thoughts in the direction of 35mm hi-res digital monochrome coupled with medium format film (no way will I give up using film).  Hmmm...

[frame-it]

14 hours ago, M10Alpine said:

Of course its excessive consumerism, but if one don't own many things, have few other hobbies and find pleasure in using Leicas, I think it's a positive unnecessary thing to spend time and money on. Rational? no - warranted ? no. Yet still explainable. I don't know, my hesitation is the file size from 41 mp. As for the sensor its like many things, a matter of taste. I have a few Leica film cameras so the reason I opted to pull the trigger on this is to get different results from Tri-X. I might regret it and want the firs monochrome, who knows. 

 

i think one of the issues might be LR or C1 support which takes ages, for the monochrom DNG files, the 41mp file size is not that bad

[Herr Barnack]

I think come Monday morning, I'm going to put my name on a couple of wait lists.  With any luck, I should get in at #111,000,000 or so. 

[fotografr]

I still like my MM1 so much that I haven't exactly been on the edge of my chair waiting for a new Monochrom, especially after trying the M246 and liking it less than my MM1. Still, I'll reserve judgement until I hear how new buyers like theirs, but I don't plan to be one of the first to jump in. The higher dynamic range is very appealing, but the 40MP (effective 60MP) sensor has me thinking that shutter speeds below 1/4000th for hand held shooting might be useless. Any unsharpness will be glaring at that resolution.

[otto.f]

17 minutes ago, fotografr said:

40MP (effective 60MP) sensor has me thinking that shutter speeds below 1/4000th for hand held shooting might be useless. Any unsharpness will be glaring at that resolution.

Is that correct? I thought that movement blur was related to the size of the sensor, not to the amount of pixels per se. 

[frame-it]

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1 hour ago, fotografr said:

 but the 40MP (effective 60MP) sensor has me thinking that shutter speeds below 1/4000th for hand held shooting might be useless. Any unsharpness will be glaring at that resolution.

Canon 5D-SR + zeiss makro planar 100mm MF 51MP @1/500th focus on the burning tip

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Crop

Edited January 13, 2020 by frame-it

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

but the 40MP (effective 60MP) sensor has me thinking that shutter speeds below 1/4000th for hand held shooting might be useless. Any unsharpness will be glaring at that resolution.

Fuji GFX50r + leica 50mm Summilux ASPH 51MP MF @1/500th [this was an in-camera JPEG with Acros RED film simulation]

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Edited January 13, 2020 by frame-it

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

 but the 40MP (effective 60MP) sensor has me thinking that shutter speeds below 1/4000th for hand held shooting might be useless. Any unsharpness will be glaring at that resolution.

Crops resized for this forum

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[frame-it]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

but the 40MP (effective 60MP) sensor has me thinking that shutter speeds below 1/4000th for hand held shooting might be useless. Any unsharpness will be glaring at that resolution.

Fuji GFX50r + 90mm APO Summicron M + Macro Adapter M  51MP  @1/500th

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Edited January 13, 2020 by frame-it

[wizard]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb fotografr:

Any unsharpness will be glaring at that resolution.

Only if you zoom into the shot far enough to detect any potential amount of unsharpness, I think. I have never quite understood why a given lens may no longer be considered as rendering a sharp image just because the number of available pixels is upped. In the old film days, if a lens was sharp on ISO 400 film, it was also sharp on ISO 100 or even ISO 25 film.

In my view, the only difference between having, say, 24 MP and 41 MP is that with 41 MP you may zoom deeper into any given image while still getting more detail (provided the lens is capable of resolving that detail), whereas with fewer MP you will arrive at the level of maximum sensor resolution sooner (meaning that any further zooming-in will not provide more detail, since the sensor is not able to resolve any finer detail). In other words, with fewer MP you are likely outresolving your sensor first, whereas with a high MP sensor it becomes more likely that you may zoom into an image far enough to reach the resolving capabilities of your lens (that is, the sensor could record still finer detail, if the lens were capable of resolving it).

But with any given lens and any given level of zooming-in prior to reaching the maximum resolution of the lens and the sensor, there should be no difference in perceived sharpness based on the MP count of the sensor. If my understanding is correct, this would translate into the fact that, provided an image is technically sharp, a for example 24 inch print would be perceived as equally sharp, regardless of whether the image was taken with a 24 or 41 MP image sensor. Any difference between those sensors would only be perceivable as the print becomes large enough to show the smaller sensors lack of detail resolution. The same would appear to be true, vice versa, for any given lens. That is, a given lens will not get less sharp if used on a higher MP sensor, but you may not be able to fully exploit the higher MP sensor's resolution.

Best,

Andy

Edited January 13, 2020 by wizard

[johnbuckley]

Wizard, that was very helpful.

Can someone help me understand what is meant by saying that a 41mp sensor on the MP is effectively 60mp? Is it that without having to interpolate colors, each monochrome pixel captures more data? (I've always sort of understood how the Monochrom(s) could be better at higher ISO without color noise, but never really heard before the idea that X megapixels on a Monochrom are actually X + Y.)

 

[fotografr]

25 minutes ago, johnbuckley said:

Wizard, that was very helpful.

Can someone help me understand what is meant by saying that a 41mp sensor on the MP is effectively 60mp? Is it that without having to interpolate colors, each monochrome pixel captures more data? (I've always sort of understood how the Monochrom(s) could be better at higher ISO without color noise, but never really heard before the idea that X megapixels on a Monochrom are actually X + Y.)

 

First, the user must understand how a color camera works, and how it gets its picture.  Non 3-CCD cameras use a Bayer filter, which is a matrix of red, green, and blue filters over each pixel.  For each group of 4 pixels, there are 2 greens, 1 red and 1 blue pixel. (The eye being most sensitive in Green, has more to simulate the response).

 

 

 

To get a color image out, each pixel out is a computation of a weighted sum of its nearest neighbor pixels which is known as Bayer interpolation.  The accuracy of the color on these cameras is a result of what the original image was, and how the camera algorithms interpolated the set of red, green and blue values for each pixel.

To get monochrome out, one technique is to have the image broken down into Hue, Saturation, and Intensity, with the intensity taken as the grey scale value.  Again, this is mathematical computation. The quality of the output is dependent upon the original image and the algorithms used to compute the output.

 

 

 

An image such as the above will give an algorithm a hard time as you are flipping between grey scale values of 0 and 255 for each pixel (assuming the check board lines up with each pixel).  Since the output of each pixel is based on it’s nearest neighbors, you could be replacing a black pixel with 4 white ones!

 

On the other hand, if we had an image with a ramp of pixel values, in other words, each pixel was say 1 value less than the one next to it, the average of the the nearest neighbors would very close to the pixel it was replacing.

 

 

What does all this mean in real world applications?  Let’s take a look at a 2 images, both from the same brand of camera where one is the using the 5MP Sony Pregius IMX250 monochrome sensor, the other is using the same sensor, but the color version.  The images were taken with the same exposure and identical setup.  So how do they compare when we blow them up to the pixel level after we take the monochrome output from the color camera and compare it to the monochrome camera?

(Left) – Color Image ——————————- (Right) – Monochrome Image

In comparing the color image (Left), if you expand the picture, you can see that the middle of the E is wider.  The transition is not as close to a step function as you would want it to be.  The vertical cross section is about 11 pixels with more black than white.  Comparing the monochrome image (Right), the vertical cross section is closer to about 8 pixels.

[fotografr]

4 hours ago, otto.f said:

Is that correct? I thought that movement blur was related to the size of the sensor, not to the amount of pixels per se. 

Any movement blur just becomes more evident at higher resolutions. It's hard to avoid some blur with hand held shooting, but we generally don't notice it unless pixel peeping.  Some people clearly have a steadier hand than others (Frame-it, for example).

[fotografr]

1 hour ago, johnbuckley said:

Wizard, that was very helpful.

Can someone help me understand what is meant by saying that a 41mp sensor on the MP is effectively 60mp? Is it that without having to interpolate colors, each monochrome pixel captures more data? (I've always sort of understood how the Monochrom(s) could be better at higher ISO without color noise, but never really heard before the idea that X megapixels on a Monochrom are actually X + Y.)

 

Leica, in their own release data for the MM1, stated that the 18MP sensor, bring mono, would effectively be a nearly 30MP.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, johnbuckley said:

Wizard, that was very helpful.

Can someone help me understand what is meant by saying that a 41mp sensor on the MP is effectively 60mp? Is it that without having to interpolate colors, each monochrome pixel captures more data? (I've always sort of understood how the Monochrom(s) could be better at higher ISO without color noise, but never really heard before the idea that X megapixels on a Monochrom are actually X + Y.)

 

More MP means more resolution, and the effective increase in resolution through elimination of the color array is at the heart of the Monochrom cameras. Not literally more MP, but effectively more resolution.  This has been covered ad nauseam since its introduction, as the MM was compared to a 24MP camera (despite M9 at 18 MP), and the M246 more like a 36 MP camera. This is partly why I and others have questioned the significant MP increase in the rumored M10M, not just going from 24 to 41MP, but the effective resolution bump well beyond. 

Jono sums it up in this brief excerpt from his M246 review. 

It’s worth briefly revisiting the reason for a Monochrome camera before discussing Elliott in detail: Current sensors only detect the intensity of light, not the colour. A Bayer filter is placed over the sensor with a different colour filter over each photo-site. When the image is processed (demosaicing) groups of 4 pixels are examined together and in the context of surrounding groups and the colour is calculated. The filter itself imposes a 1 to 2 stop reduction in the light reaching the sensor, and the demosaicing process reduces the resolution. With a monochrome sensor there is no need for a Bayer filter or for the demosaicing process - in theory one might expect a 4x improvement in resolution, but in practical terms it works out more like a two times improvement.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Jeff S

[johnbuckley]

Got it. It has been SO LONG SINCE THE MONOCHROM 246 WAS RELEASED that I had forgotten the details. Thank you Brent and Jeff.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by johnbuckley

[johnbuckley]

And here we go:https://leicarumors.com/2020/01/13/confirmed-new-leica-m10-monochrom-camera-m10m-to-be-announced-this-friday-january-17.aspx/

[dkmoore]

I'm looking forward to a few answers on this puppy. I haven't been able to get a straight answer if it will have IBIS (doubt it will).

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

Can’t wait for the eventual discussions regarding use of vintage lenses, adding grain (noise), use of high ISOs, etc to achieve a more filmic rendering and to offset the ultra clean resolution. And others competing to see who can achieve  the biggest prints (or farthest viewing distance) using all that resolution.  Fun times.

Jeff