LikameLeica Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share #41 Posted December 31, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 12/25/2019 at 11:08 PM, LikameLeica said: I have been using the SL for ~4 years and have really loved the camera. I decided to upgrade and I just received my new SL2 this past week and I am not entirely happy with image performance. I still have more testing be done over the next few days, but wanted to post and see if others have similar issues and/or recommendations. I have a feeling that this has more to do with Adobe Lightroom processing of SL2 images and not actual issue with image quality. Equipment & Software: SL2 with 24-90 SL Lens, 35 1.4 Summilux and 50 1.4 Summilux Lenses. Brand New MacBook Pro 16" with upgraded AMD Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB graphics card, and 32GB RAM Adobe Lightroom Classic 9.1 and Camera Raw 12.1 Issues: 1. Excessive Image Noise on images at 1600, 3200, and 6400 ISO in comparison to what I have seen with the SL. 2. Import into Lightroom with Embedded Profile produces an excessively magenta toned image. I have to convert the image to Adobe Portrait or Adobe Color to get White Balance looking accurate. 3. Images seem to be soft and high-contrast in comparison to my experience with SL images. 4. Images sometimes will not load properly (high res) in Lightroom and I have to click to next image and then back to get it to load (realize this is not a camera issue) Any thoughts or advise? Update with a few more days of shooting. Much happier with the images coming out of the SL2 now that I have had some time with the camera. Performance at low ISO's and the 24-90 is outstanding, with the ability to perform considerable crops and maintain a very usable hi-res image. The flexibility of the dynamic range in the lower ISO's is excellent with virtually no noise in the shadows pulled out from under exposed areas on the images. In terms of the color calibration, I am now importing with the Adobe Color Profile in my presets for Adobe Lightroom and this provides a great starting point for further refinement (but usually not necessary). Here is a link to a few images captured over the last few days. https://timament.smugmug.com/Leica-SL2-First-Adventure/ 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 Hi LikameLeica, Take a look here SL2 Excessive Noise and other image issues?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Macberg Posted January 4, 2020 Share #42 Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) I wrote this in another thread here, too; I have used the SL2 quite a bit now and I also think, that ISO-noise (which becomes noticable with a - for me - disturbing amount from around ISO 3200 onwards, sometimes earlier/later, strongly depending on your subject) looks more like film grain of the older days with the Q2 and the SL2, compared to the noise produced by, for example, the Q1 (which I traded in for the Q2) because it is much finer and more homogenous. I also read in the German forum, that the sensor of the SL2 is ISO-invariant which means that you can underexpose quite a lot and push the low-lights afterwards with less disturbing (disturbing because of inhomogeneity or effects like banding) noise than letting the camera-processor do the pushing when taking the picture and choosing a high ISO value. I guess, however, that the quality of the results when doing so, depends on the RAW-converter you use. I will remember and try that in the future... So far, I am very pleased with the results I get. Here is an example shot under very bad light conditions (only the artists' faces had enough light, everything else was much too dark) - taken with the SL2 and the M-Summicron 90mm APO Asph. at ISO 1600, with low lights pushed by a value of 20 (which I would definitely not recommend) and sharpness increased a lot (four thirds of the way of the adjuster, which I also wouldn't recommend) in Capture One Pro 20: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 4, 2020 by Macberg 3 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304758-sl2-excessive-noise-and-other-image-issues/?do=findComment&comment=3884783'>More sharing options...
Macberg Posted January 4, 2020 Share #43 Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) If you look at the cropped image detail below, the ISO-Noise (no noise reduction was used) looks more like film grain in my opinion. Again, low lights were pushed by a value of 20 and sharpness increased excessively (C1) and please note that the image quality also suffered a bit because of the data size limit in this forum. The noise/grain you see here would most probably be also irrelevant when using this picture, as you would never crop as excessively as I did here. Just have a look at the full picture above (again, with a strongly reduced image quality because of the data limit here) - I guess I could still create a fairly large print with a satisfying image quality despite the bad light conditions under which the image was taken. I also prefer higher detail (even with a rather high level of homogenous, grain-like noise) over aggressively noise-reduced, smoothed-out, flat pictures with lack of details delivered by some competitors (and modern smartphones, by the way). The SL2 gives me exactly that. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 4, 2020 by Macberg 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304758-sl2-excessive-noise-and-other-image-issues/?do=findComment&comment=3884784'>More sharing options...
Macberg Posted January 4, 2020 Share #44 Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) I know, that my examples here are not created with a proper test setting. But they might give an impression of the possibility of underexposing with the (supposedly) ISO-invariant sensor, and later pushing the low light areas instead of pushing it with the processor of the camera by choosing a higher ISO-value at the moment of exposure: Same light situation as in #42 and #43 (not the same subject, I know), but ISO 800, low lights pushed by 40 (instead of pushing by 20 with ISO 1600 in #42 and #43): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 4, 2020 by Macberg 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304758-sl2-excessive-noise-and-other-image-issues/?do=findComment&comment=3884814'>More sharing options...
Macberg Posted January 4, 2020 Share #45 Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) And the cropped detail: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 4, 2020 by Macberg 3 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304758-sl2-excessive-noise-and-other-image-issues/?do=findComment&comment=3884815'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 4, 2020 Share #46 Posted January 4, 2020 vor einer Stunde schrieb Macberg: If you look at the cropped image detail below, the ISO-Noise (no noise reduction was used) looks more like film grain in my opinion. vor einer Stunde schrieb Macberg: I wrote this in another thread here, too; I have used the SL2 quite a bit now and I also think, that ISO-noise (which becomes noticable with a - for me - disturbing amount from around ISO 3200 onwards, sometimes earlier/later, strongly depending on your subject) looks more like film grain of the older days with the Q2 and the SL2, compared to the noise produced by, for example, the Q1 (which I traded in for the Q2) because it is much finer and more homogenous. +1. The α7R IV has the most organic noise of any FF camera, IMO. It’s even finer and more homogeneous than that of the α7R III. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommydom Posted January 4, 2020 Share #47 Posted January 4, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 12/31/2019 at 12:28 PM, LikameLeica said: [snip] Here is a link to a few images captured over the last few days. https://timament.smugmug.com/Leica-SL2-First-Adventure/ Wonderful shots. What is the location? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 4, 2020 Share #48 Posted January 4, 2020 vor 7 Stunden schrieb Macberg: [...] So far, I am very pleased with the results I get. Here is an example shot under very bad light conditions (only the artists' faces had enough light, everything else was much too dark) - [...] Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! How did the dude manage to read off the music stand in such low light? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted January 4, 2020 Share #49 Posted January 4, 2020 9 minutes ago, Chaemono said: How did the dude manage to read off the music stand in such low light? His glasses had IBIS? 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macberg Posted January 5, 2020 Share #50 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) vor 12 Stunden schrieb Chaemono: How did the dude manage to read off the music stand in such low light? He was a real professional, he knew all the songs by heart and every now and then, a glimpse of his music sheets was enough for him...😉 I see your point. You are right, it was not pitch black there, but dark enough that the camera most of the time suggested ISO 3200 (with center-weighted metering) in order to keep the light meter indicator in the middle of the scale, which I ignored (I underexposed by choosing ISO 1600 and ISO 800). That's what I meant with "very bad light conditions". I just wanted to give an impression of the kind of noise we are talking about, how the SL2 deals with it and what possibilities users have to deal with it when they make use of the (supposedly) ISO-invariant sensor. Edited January 5, 2020 by Macberg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktenschrank Posted January 5, 2020 Share #51 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Macberg said: I just wanted to give an impression of the kind of noise we are talking about, how the SL2 deals with it and what possibilities users have to deal with it when they make use of the (supposedly) ISO-invariant sensor. I don't think the SL2 sensor is ISO-invariant throughout the whole range. It looks like it's using a dual gain design, just as the Q2 & S1R. You can clearly see the second gain stage starting to be used somewhere between ISO 400 & 800 in the Photons to Photons graphs here: http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica Q2,Leica SL2,Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R Also dpreview has clearly shown that both the Q2 and the S1R using the same sensor are not ISO invariant throughout the whole ISO range. If I have the time tonight I´ll run a test shot series with the SL2 to confirm this, but I´m pretty sure the result will be similar to the Q2 & S1R. Unfortunately Leica is not publishing any information on the gain stages and base ISO´s (would be especially useful for video work, since in this area generally the approach of treating ISO is much more centered around knowing the gain stages). Just to clarify, this does not mean the SL2 is NOT invariant, it just means it has two gain stages. Within those stages the camera is probably "invariant"😀. But it's obviously hard to make use of this "dual-invariance", if the stages are not known... Edited January 5, 2020 by Aktenschrank typo correction 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macberg Posted January 5, 2020 Share #52 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) @Aktenschrank Thanks for your infos and your efforts! It would be really helpful to know at which ISO-value-ranges the sensor "behaves invariant". Edited January 5, 2020 by Macberg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 5, 2020 Share #53 Posted January 5, 2020 BTW, Steve Huff claims in his first look of the SL2 that ISO 2500 files have too much noise. I’m pretty sure what he’s talking about and showing is pushed ISO 2500 pictures. It’s a bit disingenuous, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktenschrank Posted January 5, 2020 Share #54 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) ok, so here's the quick test for ISO-invariance. Left shot is ISO 3200, right shot is ISO 100 lifted by 5 stops in Lightroom. Both shots have 25 colour noise suppression applied (no luminance noise suppression!). Both images are severe crops (about 100%). As expected the SL2 sensor is not ISO invariant throughout it's ISO range. Slight banding also starts to become visible in the lifted shot on the right. If I have time I´ll do further tests to try to narrow down where the second gain stage kicks in (most likely between 400-800). I hope the difference is still visible in this forum compatible downsized version. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 5, 2020 by Aktenschrank added info about crop 3 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304758-sl2-excessive-noise-and-other-image-issues/?do=findComment&comment=3885475'>More sharing options...
Exodies Posted January 5, 2020 Share #55 Posted January 5, 2020 Does “ISO invariant” mean “only digital multiplication ( amplification)” of the image is used? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktenschrank Posted January 5, 2020 Share #56 Posted January 5, 2020 16 minutes ago, Exodies said: Does “ISO invariant” mean “only digital multiplication ( amplification)” of the image is used? Very simplified, yes. It depends on the sensor characteristics between upstream & downstream read noise. I know it gets far into geek territory here, but if you're interested to dig deeper, this article is great: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8189925268/what-s-that-noise-shedding-some-light-on-the-sources-of-noise/1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca Posted January 5, 2020 Share #57 Posted January 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Aktenschrank said: ok, so here's the quick test for ISO-invariance. Left shot is ISO 3200, right shot is ISO 100 lifted by 5 stops in Lightroom. Both shots have 25 colour noise suppression applied (no luminance noise suppression!). Both images are severe crops (about 100%). As expected the SL2 sensor is not ISO invariant throughout it's ISO range. Slight banding also starts to become visible in the lifted shot on the right. If I have time I´ll do further tests to try to narrow down where the second gain stage kicks in (most likely between 400-800). I hope the difference is still visible in this forum compatible downsized version. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Its very clear and differences can be noted. Thanks ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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