[SL2] Cine Mode

[digitalfx]

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I would like to start a discussion in Cine Mode in the new SL2. I'm very excited at the possibilities of the new SL2, as it appears Leica has listened to all of our feedback over the years and released an outstanding new cinema camera in the SL2.

 

I'll lead off with a few questions;

1- [LUT] I read in some of the early reviews and discussions that LUTS were implemented in Cine Mode, but I see no reference in the manual and can't seem to find anything in the menus. I have my "Cine-4k-24 Profile" set up for L-LOG and both the EVF and LCD display the image in LOG color space which make it difficult to focus and judge exposure. Can we view REC-709 or a LUT in the EVF while recording L-LOG?

2- [ASA] The manual indicates that in Cine Mode you can use the full ASA range, yet when the camera is in Cine Mode all ASA options before ASA400 are ghosted. Are we limited to 400 ASA min in Cine Mode?

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[Stuart Richardson]

I do not have the SL2 available to me, but I know that for a lot of log implementations and certain picture styles, the minimum ISO is lifted. I think this is done to best balance the possible dynamic range. On the A7S, s log started at 1600 ISO, I believe...certain other picture profiles had different base ISO's as well. It may be that the color setup you have chosen only works for certain ISO settings.

[digitalfx]

interesting...you would think the min ASA/ISO would be the native ISO of the camera. This would imply that it is 400

[scott kirkpatrick]

In Cine mode, do lenses show T-stop ratings that are different from the f-stops?

[digitalfx]

13 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

In Cine mode, do lenses show T-stop ratings that are different from the f-stops?

According to everything I've read, they are supposed to. But my Summicron-SL lens displays f-stop in Cine mode

But unless all the lenses were calibrated to accurate T-Stops values and that info was stored in the lens data, how could this be possible?

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, digitalfx said:

interesting...you would think the min ASA/ISO would be the native ISO of the camera. This would imply that it is 400

Short answer: that's a common native ISO for video.

Long answer:

Cinematographers rate ISO differently. Their estimation is based on finding the point where underexposure and overexposure latitude are roughly equal. Here's a discussion about the Arri Alexa:

https://cinematography.net/edited-pages/Optimal-ISO-for-Alexa.html

Stills photographers tend to rate much lower, which gives a slightly bigger dynamic range and less noise, but the large dynamic range is skewed to the underexposure side. That's how we ended-up with the "expose to the right" mantra, where we pick a very low ISO and then under-expose it to protect highlights. That technique doesn't work with video because every shot is exposed differently, and it takes forever to match exposure in editing. You wouldn't want to edit a scene where the establishing shot, close-ups, and inserts are all exposed differently. You would never match the colour and contrast.

The same logic goes for F-stops vs T-stops. The difference isn't big enough for stills photographers to care, but it's noticeable if you have one scene shot from multiple angles and each shot has slightly different exposure.

[digitalfx]

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1 minute ago, BernardC said:

Short answer: that's a common native ISO for video.

Long answer:

Cinematographers rate ISO differently. Their estimation is based on finding the point where underexposure and overexposure latitude are roughly equal. Here's a discussion about the Arri Alexa:

 

Well, I would say "common native ISO" is relative to the camera/sensor and not common.

Im used to shooting with a RED camera, which works a bit differently. You select the ISO based on where you want the latitude to fall (more on highlight side or more on shadows side), rarely do you want it exactly in the middle. The scene dictates where you want it. For example in a mostly dark scene there is no advantage to exposing based on an ISO that sets your dynamic range dead center. 

[BernardC]

2 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

Im used to shooting with a RED camera, which works a bit differently. You select the ISO based on where you want the latitude to fall (more on highlight side or more on shadows side), rarely do you want it exactly in the middle. The scene dictates where you want it.

Exactly. It's a different way of thinking compared to the stills world. The assumption for stills is that lower ISO is better, which is a holdover from filmstock days. The question in cine is "what exposure will best capture the tonal range of this scene?"

[digitalfx]

Unless I’m missing something, for 4K recording your best option is .mov

.MOV

C4K  4096x2160 is 4:2:2 10bit 400Mbps

5k also available 

vs .mp4

max res is UHD 3840x2160 100-150Mbps

[Archiver]

How is the 1080p quality compared with 4K? I'm interested as I tend to shoot in 1080 50p on the GH4, and SL2 high frame rates are only available in 1080p anyway.

On the GH4 and other Panasonic cameras, the higher bitrate IPB  MOV codecs are better/more robust in grading than equivalent bitrate MP4 codecs. I wonder if the SL2 is the same.

[digitalfx]

I haven’t shot 1080 in over 10 years

but seriously it should look great, plus it has the added benefit of the higher frame rates. 4K looks really nice, so I would image so will 1080.

[mirekti]

Movie 5D reported bad moire in FF, but got feedback from Leica it is greatly mitigated in APS-C mode.

Anyone here with first hand experience/comparison between the two modes?

[digitalfx]

8 hours ago, mirekti said:

Movie 5D reported bad moire in FF, but got feedback from Leica it is greatly mitigated in APS-C mode.

Anyone here with first hand experience/comparison between the two modes?

moire is only an issue in certain situations. I haven't compared the two modes as moire hasn't been a big problem (yet)...but switching to APS-C mode to eliminate moire is not a valid solution I would use.

[BernardC]

On 11/25/2019 at 9:52 PM, digitalfx said:

Unless I’m missing something, for 4K recording your best option is .mov

.MOV

C4K  4096x2160 is 4:2:2 10bit 400Mbps

5k also available 

vs .mp4

max res is UHD 3840x2160 100-150Mbps

Interesting. None of the specs that I've seen online (including Leica's own site) mention the higher bitrate for MOV. Does that apply to UHD as well? Is the 400Mbps option external-only?

As a general rule, I think people should avoid "real" 4K (C4K), unless their project requires it. The two main reasons to shoot C4K are if you are shooting anamorphic, or if you are shooting widescreen (2:1 or 2.4:1) for an HD finish. Obviously, a film-out or digital cinema release in 1.85 is a third reason, but it doesn't apply to many projects.

Other than that it's best to stick with UHD and avoid resizing/cropping in post. C4K-to-UHD is a small resize (<10%), which is more likely to lead to artifacts than a more aggressive resize (C4k-to-HD) would.

This is something that should be tested, but I think that a UHD image with a letterbox crop applied will look better on a UHD TV screen, compared to a C4K image resized to 1.85:1 or 2:1 or 2.4:1.

[digitalfx]

all the specs I mentioned above are internal SD recording- these are the only options in current fw:

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[BernardC]

Thanks for the info. I wish Leica had published that in their specifications.

[mirekti]

How’s the battery life im video mode?

I believe I’ve read somewhere when it goes under 60% it stops recording in 4k.

[digitalfx]

More like 20% before warning shows up
it definitely sucks up the battery though, but more importantly it chews up 64gb cards

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[digitalfx]

On 11/28/2019 at 10:37 AM, BernardC said:

As a general rule, I think people should avoid "real" 4K (C4K), unless their project requires it. The two main reasons to shoot C4K are if you are shooting anamorphic, or if you are shooting widescreen (2:1 or 2.4:1) for an HD finish. Obviously, a film-out or digital cinema release in 1.85 is a third reason, but it doesn't apply to many projects.

Other than that it's best to stick with UHD and avoid resizing/cropping in post. C4K-to-UHD is a small resize (<10%), which is more likely to lead to artifacts than a more aggressive resize (C4k-to-HD) would.

This is something that should be tested, but I think that a UHD image with a letterbox crop applied will look better on a UHD TV screen, compared to a C4K image resized to 1.85:1 or 2:1 or 2.4:1.

There is no disadvantage to shooting C4k...its a simple crop in any editing software...no artifacts or scaling done. If you import your footage as shot into a UHD timeline, it simply crops off the extra footage on the ends. I generally shoot C4k, as its my negative and there is no tradeoff in camera/recording and handling the footage in post is as simple as handling UHD, except you have a few extra bits of real estate.

[simon_hsn]

Will the Leica support the Panasonic XLR1 unit? Coming from a GH5 this little device is really amazing in terms of compactness and usability in the field.