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What if Leica make an APS-C size point and shooter to backup the M8?

sdai

By sdai
in Leica M8 / Leica M8.2

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sdai

sdai

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Ok, I must admit "my idea" is inspired by Wilson's thread on choosing a point and shooter to backup his M8. I'm sure a lot of folks will be interested in this ... and it may be a great stepstone for more to enter the world of Leica because IMHO the newly introduced Summarits just aren't enough "entry-level" while a lot serious amateurs and professionals will absolutely not be satisfied with the image quality of current breed of rebadged LUMIXs either.

 

For the record, this is NOT ground breaking, 'cause Sony has done it with the R1 and Sigma is working on its DP-1. My thought is quite simple actually ...

 

1. Apparently, there are mass production 1.5x APS-C chips out there with very affordable price. 6MP, 8MP ... 10MP - any of them will just be fine.

 

2. Leica could handle the ergonomics design in the perfect way.

 

3. Leica could design the optics in its perfect way, and I suggest making it a 35mm fixed focal length lens which is absolutely classical to a Leica.

 

4. This one will be the digital CM.

 

5. Contract Panasonic or whoever is willing to cooperate with Leica ... on electronics design. Build it in Japan or China.

 

6. Price it in the 1000-1500 USD range, heck, even 2000 US will do (for me).

 

7. It might turn into a smash hit. An absolutely killer product.

 

What do you guys think? come on ...

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lct

lct

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...I've said it'll be a fixed lens pointer and shooter...

Thanks no thanks i want to use my M lenses.

Why not a cute APS-C Leica DL with a decent AA filter, a shutter lever, a manual ISO ring and a reversible LCD?

Not quite sure if Leica would sell many more M8's though...

rolleyes.gif

 

LeicaDL.gif

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george +

george +

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Mark, the CL was cheaper because of cheaper components and production in the the Orient. You took the M8 apart. How much do you think could be saved on parts and labour? While adding in the development expense again?

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wlaidlaw

wlaidlaw

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My 2¢ worth as the inspirer of this thread. As a true back up camera it has to be small. I would put the Ricoh GR-D size as the upper limit, so that it fits in a large shirt pocket. The Sony R1 was/is a huge and very plasticky, albeit good camera - I had one. I think there is nothing wrong with the D-Lux 3 apart from its lack of an optical viewfinder. It would be nice if they could make a different version with an optical finder, maybe a fixed lens - I would go for an EFOV of 40 to 45mm f2.5 Summarit and a somewhat bigger, quieter sensor. 8Mp is probably enough for a P&S. You are not going to be printing this to A2 size. I would be interested but I doubt if they would sell enough to make it worthwhile.

 

Wilson

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4season

4season

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If such a thing were possible, I'd love to have a digital CL for $1500 new, but at the moment, I suspect it is not. If Sigma's DP1 didn't encounter problems with FCC certification, battery life or overheating, maybe keeping the big sensor dust-free has been an issue.

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marknorton

marknorton

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Mark, the CL was cheaper because of cheaper components and production in the the Orient. You took the M8 apart. How much do you think could be saved on parts and labour? While adding in the development expense again?

 

George, the M8 was engineered to be easy to make and I expect the labour content is less than any "big" Leica camera in history. Facts like there are only 6 wires in the entire camera point to the thought which has gone in to designing it and compared to the CL or early Leica electronic SLRs, it's simply and elegantly made. With a tray of parts, I'm confident I could build an M8 in a couple of hours, aside from the Sensor and Rangefinder adjustment.

 

Compared to the M7, the M8 will have a higher material content but a much lower labour content which is why the benefits of making it in Portugal have all but evaporated. Besides, Portugal is no longer the cheap country to do this work it once was. It's been replaced by countries like Slovakia where labour costs are 1/10 of those in Germany (but rising due to demand exceeding supply) and where, for example, Porsche have the Cayenne made by Volkswagen.

 

So, no great opportunity to reduce the cost of the camera by assembling it elsewhere. As for parts, I expect the 5 most expensive parts/assemblies (bought in and made in-house) are: the sensor, the DSP board, the shutter, the top cover and the rangefinder and together, they probably account for more than 75% of the material cost. The opportunity for producing a lower cost camera depends therefore which of those Leica would be prepared to compromise on.

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sdai

sdai

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My 2¢ worth as the inspirer of this thread. As a true back up camera it has to be small.

 

Wilson ... no one said this one will be big, and it is meant NOT to be big. 35mm focal length only means the equivalent FOV and that translates into something else in real design ... take a look at the Sigma DP1 ... is it big? and Sigma has a 28/4 (35mm. equiv.) fixed focal on it.

 

I understand there're many folks who will never bother with a point and shooter, which is perfectly fine ... but then there're folks looking at the C lux, D Lux ... choices, and the gap between a C lux, D Lux, and a M is simply too big. How many times it has been mentioned about here? :)

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sdai

sdai

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So, no great opportunity to reduce the cost of the camera by assembling it elsewhere.

 

I humbly disagree, Mark ... one of the major reasons why Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Sony moves out of Japan is about labor costs. At one time Sony even ran into major labor relationship issues ... and they were forced to move some operations back to Japan from Shanghai.

 

Fuji has gone even further, they plan to completely halt their camera operations in Japan and move to Suzhou near Shanghai, China.

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marknorton

marknorton

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Indeed, but the cameras they are building outside of Japan - in China, the Philipinnes, Thailand are the entry level and mid-range cameras where costs need to be pared to the bone. Leica will never produce cameras themselves at this point and their chosen route is not to sub-contract their own manufacture but to rebadge a bought-in product from one of the majors.

 

A better comparison is the high end cameras. Nikon still makes the D2x and the professional lenses in Japan, even if the consumer lenses are made in, for example, Thailand. For high end product, "Made in Japan" is as important for Nikon as "Made in Germany" is for Leica.

 

Leica M volumes are tiny in comparison to Nikon or Canon and as you have pointed out, the M is made from standard components which make it necessarily expensive compared to the highly integrated alternative. I'm convinced it's the cost of the bought-in parts/assemblies which makes an M8 expensive, not the labour involved in putting them together in Germany.

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thrid

thrid

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I wouldn't mind seeing an APS format camera with a fixed lens that is equivalant to a f2/35mm Summicron, with full RF focusing. 8MP would be enough.

Could be the size of a CL Hexar or IIIg.

 

Maybe even put an 8 or 10MP version of the HDR Fuji SuperCCD from the S5 PRO in it, but without an AA filter. Heck I would take the 6MP version that's in the S5 right now. Without an AA filter it should be plenty sharp.

 

Price it at $1200-1800. I don't care if it's made in China or Taiwan, as long as the QC is maintained (works for Nikon and Canon).

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wlaidlaw

wlaidlaw

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Wilson ... no one said this one will be big, and it is meant NOT to be big. 35mm focal length only means the equivalent FOV and that translates into something else in real design ... take a look at the Sigma DP1 ... is it big? and Sigma has a 28/4 (35mm. equiv.) fixed focal on it.

 

I understand there're many folks who will never bother with a point and shooter, which is perfectly fine ... but then there're folks looking at the C lux, D Lux ... choices, and the gap between a C lux, D Lux, and a M is simply too big. How many times it has been mentioned about here? :)

 

I think I agree with everything you say but it seems as if Sigma may be struggling with the DP1 - I hope not as it looks very interesting. It is just a tad big at 2" thick, so I would guess it is close to the size of a Canon G7. I am also guessing at the projected price, unless you are looking at it for a high quality back up camera, it looks very pricey compared with the ever tumbling DSLR prices and with the Canon G7.

 

My brother and I were playing around this afternoon with my HP B9180, as he is about to order one. He was printing from his Nikon D200. He was taking RAW+JPEG. When we printed out at A4, I was surprised to see we could not tell which was the JPEG and which the TIFF from RAW. At A3 we could tell but there was less difference than I would have assumed. The point of this is that unless the DP1 takes images miles ahead of the Canon G7, which I would see as its natural competitor, it will struggle to sell any better than Sigma's other digital offerings. I can only assume the lens side massively subsidizes the camera side.

 

Wilson

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