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8 minutes ago, james.liam said:

Crazy it may be but it will also challenge some of the oldest optics.

On the flip side, I’m betting it creates even more interest in using ‘old glass’, as many threads here already demonstrate, including use on the two existing Monochroms.  Many like the far less than perfect rendering.

Jeff

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17 minutes ago, james.liam said:

Crazy it may be but it will also challenge some of the oldest optics.

A natural for the 21 SEM, 28 Summicron & Elmarit, 35 ZM 2,8/35 & 1,4/35, 50 APO & 75 Noctilux. 

 

3 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

On the flip side, I’m betting it creates even more interest in using ‘old glass’, as many threads here already demonstrate, including use on the two existing Monochroms.  Many like the far less than perfect rendering.

Jeff

yeah, I was debating whether to sell some of my older optics, but then again having seen how the previous generations of monochromes worked really well with the pre ASPH 35 lux and others, not so sure they won't give great results despite their limitations

so I decided to keep them for now, we'll see

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So clarify for me - the maximum ISO of the rumored M10M is 12800??

See, that's the downside to more Mpixels on a fixed sensor size - they're smaller and less light sensitive.

I was looking forward to a usable ISO 20000 to 40000 from a "monochrome M10" of 24 Mp - because my regular M10 can already do ISO 12800 - in color!

On the flip side, I notice Tamarkin is suddenly offering "Halloween Specials" on used 246s - $US 4750. May be a better deal for me, if I can't get it in an M10 form-factor.

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1 hour ago, adan said:

So clarify for me - the maximum ISO of the rumored M10M is 12800??

See, that's the downside to more Mpixels on a fixed sensor size - they're smaller and less light sensitive.

I was looking forward to a usable ISO 20000 to 40000 from a "monochrome M10" of 24 Mp - because my regular M10 can already do ISO 12800 - in color!

On the flip side, I notice Tamarkin is suddenly offering "Halloween Specials" on used 246s - $US 4750. May be a better deal for me, if I can't get it in an M10 form-factor.

Where did you hear the 12800 max ISO rumour? Sounds a bit weird, the M246 could do 6400 without problems and 8000 under "good conditions" (risk of banding). On the other hand from what I have seen the Q2 has more or less the same high ISO performance as Q, but of course with almost twice the resolution.

If you ask me, 12800 on M10 is pushing it, I would say 6400 is max with also some PP-abillities. So maybe 12800 is maximum on the top ISO-dial, and higher settings will be only through the menu? The dial is a nice feature, but of course comes with the limitation of the number of steps it can (mechanically) have. It may very well be that they have used the exact same dial as with M10 but given that the M10M will very likely have a higher base ISO (as the M246 had) the "lowest" setting on the dial will be 200 instead of 100 but instead 12800 will be available as opposed to max 6400 on M10 top ISO dial.

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15 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I am so glad that Leica are showing some love to Monochrom. 
I just missed my original Monochrom for almost 3 years. Stupidly trade in due to corroded sensor, for M-P typ 240, then sold as new to buy M10. 

Some people do not get it. But Monochrom is nothing like playing with colour filter and desaturation. I tried to love my Q, M10, CL and now Q2 converted in B&W. But the result does not hold a candle against original Monochrom. 

I loved to choose the perfect coloured filtre for the day : yellow, orange, yellow/green, light red or even dark red. You get perfect image without the need of post processing. The acuity is crazy as hell. 18 real MP !

When you are playing with virtual colour filtres on a Bayer sensor M10. You a are playing with only 6MP red or blue channels and 12MP green channel. Not that much really. Almost nothing left of information. 
I just find that the result is quite poor. 
 

Bonus : my wife green-lighted the M10 Monochrom for years. Saying that it was the only type of Leica worth buying. She also missed the results or the original one. 
 

So going from a perceived 36MP acuity to 82MP. It’s gonna be crazy. I am sure that Leica has found a way to make it usable with rangefinder. At each generation, the mechanism is becoming more and more accurate. 
 

Super high ISO will be super nice too. I really loved the grainy 10,000 ISO from the original. But I don’t mind a super clean 25,000 ISO and a grainy 200,000 one. I am sure that I can find a use to it, if focusing is still possible with such low light. 
 


 

I went a similar route > MM1 > corroded sensor > part exchanged for MP 240 > part exchanged for M10.  Have missed the Monochrom ever since but now waiting for delivery of a refurbished MM1 from Wetzler.  Chrome, dark red leather, no red dot on the front and nice Leica script on the top plate.  I am also number two on M10M waiting list with my local dealer so more decisions to be made next year.

 

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6 hours ago, adan said:

So clarify for me - the maximum ISO of the rumored M10M is 12800??

See, that's the downside to more Mpixels on a fixed sensor size - they're smaller and less light sensitive.

I was looking forward to a usable ISO 20000 to 40000 from a "monochrome M10" of 24 Mp - because my regular M10 can already do ISO 12800 - in color!

On the flip side, I notice Tamarkin is suddenly offering "Halloween Specials" on used 246s - $US 4750. May be a better deal for me, if I can't get it in an M10 form-factor.

M246 will be $4k in 3-6 months. Excellent camera for sure but I’d wait a few months if that $1k savings matters. 

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It's interesting. I had the original Monochrom and traded it for the M-246, because I wanted the functionality of live view enabling me to use long R lenses. But over time, and when I got an S, I began to travel without the Monochrom and instead to use it, mostly in the city, on days when I was "feeling black and white." There was a period between February and May of this year when it was the only camera I used. But traveling this summer and fall, I took only my M10 or SL. 

Getting an M10 Monochrom with 41 MP and, importantly, the ability to travel with the same batteries and charger, means I can anticipate an M10/M10-M tandem. And I am suddenly remembering how great those R lenses are for use with the Monochrom. 41 MP may have greater resolving power than a circa 1999 R telephoto, but that's fine.

This is a genuinely exciting development. The Monochrom has never been a stunt or a limited product. It has been, as Nicci has pointed out, a camera with amazing acuity. It enables us to go out with a brain wired for B+W. Not all the time -- for me -- but a significant amount of the time. Keeping it updated, and on a rhythm where it will, as it seems is planned, outperform the current M whose form factor it catches up to, is a brilliant move by Leica, and makes me forgive them for the upcoming Seal, Keith Richards, and Brad Pitt versions of the M-246, which they'll sneak out the door just in time to get one last bit of lucre from the gullible.

 

Edited by johnbuckley
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51 minutes ago, johnbuckley said:

Keeping it updated, and on a rhythm where it will, as it seems is planned, outperform the current M whose form factor it catches up to, is a brilliant move by Leica....

 

It would have far outperformed the M10 in effective resolution even at 24MP, without the Bayer array.  And, as Andy notes, now possibly at the expense of high ISO performance, as we’ve already seen when the Q2 jumped the Q by similar MP.  How much resolution do you need, particularly without IBIS to potentially enhance technique?  

I would have preferred 24MP (producing far higher effective resolution) with the much improved body/VF/sensor of the M10, and a year earlier.  Never needed monster sized b/w prints, and don’t want to cut an eyeball viewing them. Different strokes...

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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One other thing.  The MM1 produces a RAW histogram (after a short delay), unlike the successor M246. I find it useful, particularly given the need to avoid clipped highlights in a camera without color channels that can aid recovery. It would be nice to see this feature return in the M10M, although I don’t know the technical hurdles.

Jeff

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10 hours ago, adan said:

So clarify for me - the maximum ISO of the rumored M10M is 12800??

See, that's the downside to more Mpixels on a fixed sensor size - they're smaller and less light sensitive.

I was looking forward to a usable ISO 20000 to 40000 from a "monochrome M10" of 24 Mp - because my regular M10 can already do ISO 12800 - in color!

On the flip side, I notice Tamarkin is suddenly offering "Halloween Specials" on used 246s - $US 4750. May be a better deal for me, if I can't get it in an M10 form-factor.

Who tell you that ?

Monochrom version has typically 2 more stops of high ISO. So I expect it to reach 200,000 ISO. Four times SL2 and Q2 50,000. 
 

We may even get 100 ISO as floor ISO. Twice the 50 ISO of Q2 and SL2

 

No Bayer filter means pure luminance recording over 4 pixels instead of 1 green over 4. 

Edited by nicci78
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55 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

One other thing.  The MM1 produces a RAW histogram (after a short delay), unlike the successor M246. I find it useful, particularly given the need to avoid clipped highlights in a camera without color channels that can aid recovery. It would be nice to see this feature return in the M10M, although I don’t know the technical hurdles.

Jeff

Can't speak for MM1, just checked my MM2, it produces RAW histogram, if you cycle INFO button it shows up, one of 4 review options on the rear screen.

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26 minutes ago, mmradman said:

Can't speak for MM1, just checked my MM2, it produces RAW histogram, if you cycle INFO button it shows up, one of 4 review options on the rear screen.

News to me, if so, unless some FW change. Prior discussions indicate otherwise, although I have yet to see a Leica ‘insider’ (Michael H or David Farkas, for instance) chime in.

Jeff

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5 hours ago, dkmoore said:

M246 will be $4k in 3-6 months. Excellent camera for sure but I’d wait a few months if that $1k savings matters. 

The 246 already sells for 4000 in reasonably good condition semi-regularly if you keep an eye on auction sites. One in good condition recently sold in the DC area for 3800.

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20 minutes ago, Lonescapes said:

The 246 already sells for 4000 in reasonably good condition semi-regularly if you keep an eye on auction sites. One in good condition recently sold in the DC area for 3800.

Where in DC? Private seller on eBay?

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22 hours ago, Jeff S said:

On the flip side, I’m betting it creates even more interest in using ‘old glass’, as many threads here already demonstrate, including use on the two existing Monochroms.  Many like the far less than perfect rendering.

Jeff

As someone who has a ton of old glass and a M246, and stuff like Sonnetars that function like old glass, I can say that if the resolution of the camera were higher, I'd be more interested only in new glass. If your glass can't accurately focus (mechanically) and resolve more than x megapixels, upping the sensor MP 1.7x (it's 33% greater linear resolution) megapixels is not going to have a system yield anywhere near that high because an older lens is the weak link - whether it is collimation, RF coupling, or aberrations. A 25mm ZM might be the ticket, or a Super Elmar, getting you what you are actually paying for in an M10M. But a 50-year-old Summarit? Yeah, no. 

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