Surprise, excitement, intrepidation, utter disappointment, the Leica roller coaster

[Eoin]

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I can't express my utter disappointment, I'm just gob smacked. I'm not even feeling angry (yet).

 

The story is we've all been on this roller coaster ride with Leica, the bitter pill was some what sweetened by the 30% lens offer. I like the rest of you ordered my lens an waited and waited and waited some more.

 

Finally after two missed delivery dates my Noctilux arrived unexpectedly yesterday, hence the surprise. I happened to have my M8 with me in work and hence the excitement of unpacking and mounting it,

 

The intrepidation or confidence came from the belief that Leica were aware of the critical tolerance for lenses require by the M8 for accurate focus and surely they would have taken this into consideration with the newly produced Noctilux.

 

The disappointment was immediately felt on reviewing not only an image taken at close distance @ 1.5m wide open but any image taken up to f:/5.6. Out came the measuring tape and the results can be seen below.

 

My 75 Summicron is spot on wide open, my 50 Summicron is a touch soft but spot on wide open. The Noctilux however is soft wide open with about 2 inches of back focus and this immediately jumps to 4 inches at f:/1.4 and to 6 inches at f:/2.8.

 

I am absolutely dumb founded that this lens was allowed past quality control, this can't possibly be right, I've checked and re checked my findings and each time I get the same result.

 

I know there is some focus shift with this lens by it's very nature of large aperture, but my question to you is if I return it to Leica do you think I will get one back with better focus or is this inaccuracy inherent in the lens and I should consider another lens such as the Summilux 50 Asph.

 

I really wanted this lens so much, it has really brought me to a new low in my "Leica" experience. I'd be interested in your comments or suggestions as to the best way to approach this.

 

Thanks

 

The images below are in the order Nocti @ f1, Nocti @ f2.8, 75 Cron @ f2, 50 Cron & f2

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[Shootist]

So I take it the 2 little white rocks are what you are focusing on?

[hankg]

For what the Noctilux costs every lens should be put in a rig and checked before shipping to make sure it is dead on. I would send it back.

 

I think any of the major manufacturers could produce spectacular primes at 3-5000 dollars a pop. The premium for Leica lenses far exceeds the premium for the M8 which is not that much different from top of the line Canon/Nikons. It amazes me that CV can produce the lenses it does for around $300, for $3,000 and up there really is no excuse for new mis-calibrated lenses.

[Eoin]

Ed, yes the gap in the paving bricks with the 2 white stones is the point of focus. The 15 inch mark on the left ruler and the 50cm mark on the right are also the center of focus.

[jaapv]

Well, yes,the Noctilux is known as the lens with the worst focus shift in the Leica stable, to the extent that even on film, users had to develop their own focussing technique.

[sergiolov]

Eoin,

I also received the nocti a pair of weeks ago. It works very well. I noticed that it has been calibrated manually filing the focus cam. Mine is #39851xx.

Here are the results of the test. From f1 to f4

(I think that, when correctly adjusted, the nocti should front focus a little wide open, to compensate for shift when stopped down)

 

Sergio

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[plasticman]

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Well, yes,the Noctilux is known as the lens with the worst focus shift in the Leica stable, to the extent that even on film, users had to develop their own focussing technique.

 

 

I did a rather basic test of my Nocti on the first roll through the M6 a few months ago - the jpeg compression on this image did something rather weird to the grain on this shot - but here's a 100% crop of the scan that was included in the processing (not the best).

 

Looks spot-on to me - or close enough.

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[Eoin]

Sergio, Your Nocti and mine must be very close, 3985179. But I don't see any manual filing of the cam, it's smooth polished throughout it's diamater. Your's certainly seems far more accurate than mine and you certainly don't have 6 inches of back focus @ f:/2.8, more like 6mm.

[marknorton]

Have to say that, more any any product I can remember (aside perhaps from the model railway I was given when I was 7, when the contents of the box were a shadow of the picture on the front), the reality of the Nocti failed to live up to the expectation.

 

Mine has been back to Leica but it's a difficult lens to focus - were you using a finder magnifier? - and the focus shift as you stop down is not covered by increasing depth of field. I now nudge the focussing a bit in the right direction but tend to judge it by the appearance of the whole image, not the micro-resolution.

 

It's my least favourite lens in the range and surely, given its inherent problems, cannot be long for this world.

[Dan States]

The Noctilux should be spot on at F1 and back focus for all apertures after that. You are lliving in the world of the 100% crop....a land not invented when the Noctilux was created in the 1970's. The fact that you are using a 1.33 crop magnifies the focus errors.

 

I'll tell you that the Noctilux must be them most resold lens in Leica history. People (including me) get them in the hope that they will do all kinds of cool depth of field tricks only to find out that in trade you get a very heavy, slow focusing lens that is pretty soft at f1 and back focuses on smaller apertures.

 

Your lens is a bit off on full aperture focus, but the rest of the stuff is normal.

[Stuart Richardson]

It was my understanding that Noctilux's were best paired individually with the camera body. This would mean sending both in to be calibrated. I know that's not what you want to hear, but that's what I have heard is the best solution.

[Eoin]

Mark, yes a 1.25X was used to focus. I'm fairly handy with focus, I tended to manual focus my 85L most of the time. I generally don't have focus issues and tend to nail it 99% of the time at this stage.

 

But it's the depth of the focus drift that surprises me, a whopping 6 inches @ 1.7M @f:/2.8 Things don't get back into focus at the focus point till f:/8. And we're not talking a twitch of the focus ring to bring things back into focus.

 

I think I have no option but to reject this example as essentially it makes the apertures in between f:/1 & f:/8 unusable.

[sergiolov]

Sergio, Your Nocti and mine must be very close, 3985179. But I don't see any manual filing of the cam, it's smooth polished throughout it's diamater. Your's certainly seems far more accurate than mine and you certainly don't have 6 inches of back focus @ f:/2.8, more like 6mm.

 

59, so it should have been manutfactured in the same batch. Take a closer look with a magnifying lens. My copy, strange as it can seem, is clearly manually shaped in the area of contact with the focusing mechanism in the camera. I wonder if anyone else has a lens with the same treatment. Before the introduction of numeric control machines, special lenses were all handtuned.

[MP3]

Eoin

 

I received mine in late April. Same as yours, f1 back focused with 2 inches. I got the same feeling as you do now. Having hold it for 2 months, I sold it with a profit and snap up other Leica lens.

 

I agree the best adjustment for Noct is to have it tuned to front focus a quarter inch to half inch when wide open. However, I decided to let it go because its long focus throw does not suit my picture taking pace either =) For the Lux, pre-asph or asph suit me better most of the time.

[plasticman]

You are lliving in the world of the 100% crop....a land not invented when the Noctilux was created in the 1970's.

 

But film negatives are also scanned these days - and though not at the resolution of the M8 in this case, the image that I posted above and everyone ignored was a 100% crop of the test that I did with a film camera.

 

All well and good people criticising the Noctilux or saying that only 10 cameras out of 10,000 M8s have problems with different lenses, but if people constantly feel they must denigrate film cameras, they might as well get some facts to back them up.

 

And I might also add that this was my fifteenth or sixteenth shot with a rangefinder. I've gotta say, since then I've found the Noctilux to be the most wonderful, painterly and sensitive lens I've ever had the good fortune to use. A true wonder.

[sdai]

There's a easy focus test chart you guys can download, print and try with at home.

 

Nikon D70 Focus Chart

[holgerf]

Hi Eoin,

 

I am in the same situation: my 75 cron arrived last week and it frontfocusses at all distances.

 

Before that I had a dramatically misadjusted M8 which was replaced aftre two tries of adjustment in Solms.

 

What helped me finding out what the reason for out of focus image was making test shits very similar to yours. But every single shot I did with bracketing the focus. With that I found out that all the lenses were true sharp but I could not trust on the rangefinder.

 

Now, having an adjusted M8, I did the same with the new arrived 75 cron (yes, my 30% deal). Result: the sharpness is fine, but can’t trust again the rangefinder due to frontfocus of the lens.

 

So I’m sad to hear that you are rightfully disappointed and probably there will be no other way than returning the lens to Leica.

 

That said, I would adwise anyway to try some shots with bracketing to find out whether or not the lens WOULD make sharp images IF correctly adjusted.

 

Hope you feel better soon.

 

Cheers

Holger

[Dan States]

But film negatives are also scanned these days - and though not at the resolution of the M8 in this case, the image that I posted above and everyone ignored was a 100% crop of the test that I did with a film camera.

 

All well and good people criticising the Noctilux or saying that only 10 cameras out of 10,000 M8s have problems with different lenses, but if people constantly feel they must denigrate film cameras, they might as well get some facts to back them up.

 

And I might also add that this was my fifteenth or sixteenth shot with a rangefinder. I've gotta say, since then I've found the Noctilux to be the most wonderful, painterly and sensitive lens I've ever had the good fortune to use. A true wonder.

 

 

No doubt it's an amazing lens. I owned one for quite a while and it can go from an "old time" look to completely modern with a turn of the aperture. My point is that these days people are using computers to look up the bums of their images in a way we never did when analog printing was king. In all my days with the Noctilux I never even REALIZED it had focus shift until Puts mentioned it...After that I went back to my negatives and under a 25x scope, yes, you can see the effect.

 

We are getting too far away from the idea that a fine PRINT is what we want from a camera. An image that looks like trash at 100% mag can end up being a remarkable 8x12 printed image.

 

If you were to scan negatives all the most famous 35mm images of the 30's and 40's and then blow them up to 100% you would find that few if any would be critically sharp by today's standards.

 

Best wishes

Dan

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[stunsworth]

We are getting too far away from the idea that a fine PRINT is what we want from a camera. An image that looks like trash at 100% mag can end up being a remarkable 8x12 printed image.

 

If you were to scan negatives all the most famous 35mm images of the 30's and 40's and then blow them up to 100% you would find that few if any would be critically sharp by today's standards.

 

Dan, couldn't agree with you more on both counts.

 

Not to mention that real world shooting at f1 and 1 metre is going to give unsharp images for much of the time anyway, even with a perfectly adjusted camera and lens.

[barjohn]

Dan,

 

What you are saying is true but a false premise. Today's cars don't perform like those from 30, 40 or 50 years ago and they cost a lot more too. The same should be true with lenses. We pay a lot more and expect much higher performance. With cars it is better braking, gas mileage, 0 to 60 times, times between servicing, paint longevity, etc. Why shouldn't we expect tighter manufacturing tolerances and better testing with lenses? A stock engine today is like a blueprinted engine of 30 years ago in terms of tolerances and precision machining. We can machine and etch to tolerances that would have been considered impossible before. While I am not a machinist, I have a lab here (Navy Metrology Lab) where we machine to tolerances that can only be measured in a temperature and humidity controlled environment to 68 degrees f within 1/2 degree temp and 1% humidity. Just having a human body enter the room can throw off the measurement. If we can do it so can Leica though I don't think they need our tolerances.

 

Our optical tolerances are so tight we can put a laser beam inside a 1' box from 20 miles distance. Talk about focus and control:)