rumors SL2 with 36MP sensor only

[nicci78]

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Of course a same sensor tech spread over S3, SL2, M11, M11 Monochrom, etc makes total sense for Leica.  

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[mmradman]

Great team work guys (so far), we almost ended up with Sony 36Mp sensor, we couldn't possible have that on FF camera 🤠

[bags27]

1 hour ago, helged said:

Actually, the rumoured M10 Monochrome is said to have 41/42 mp sensor... https://leicarumors.com/2019/08/28/the-upcoming-leica-m10m-monochrom-camera-is-rumored-to-have-a-new-41-42mp-sensor.aspx/

then it absolutely must be so, because Peter has never before advanced a rumor that didn't proved absolutely true. 🙂

[dkmoore]

19 hours ago, colonel said:

It’s rumored every item there is a M upgrade and never occurs

An M without a rangefinder is a mirror less camera without AF

An unsaleable dead duck which dispenses with all the USP of the M

but lets see, I am very bad on predictions and always underestimate the potential of a good company to kill a good thing

I agree that you are very bad with predictions.   :  )

I also agree that An M without a rangefinder is a mirrorless camera without AF.  :  )

Sounds like we are on the same page except for line 3, which doesn't sound too appetizing. 

[Chaemono]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb bags27:

then it absolutely must be so, because Peter has never before advanced a rumor that didn't proved absolutely true. 🙂

Well, the SL2 rumor seems to be off by at least 6 MPx. 😁

 

[nicci78]

6 hours ago, bags27 said:

then it absolutely must be so, because Peter has never before advanced a rumor that didn't proved absolutely true. 🙂

Did you remember the so called CM fiasco? Peter was a firm believer even when Jono Slack publicly said that there will be no such thing. 

So he can be wrong obviously. We’ll see in a month what is true or not. 

[Fedro]

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would love to see a M10M at 41 MP though

in fact I would love to see a M10M full stop, been a long time since I sold my 246 in anticipation

and the SL2 at 36 MP, based on what you guys describe in this trail, would be just fine

[nicci78]

I suspect that another 24MP M Monochrom makes no sense. But a big jump to 41MP can worth it. I just can’t imagine how sharp such a Monochrom can be ! Can it be in GFX100 territory? 

An 18MP M Monochrom was able to rival 36MP sensor without AA filter at the time. 

Is it really possible to focus accurately at 41MP with the rangefinder ? 

 

Anyway a release of SL2 with new 41MP sensor followed by a M10-M with the 41MP without Bayer filter in Monochrom flavour can be awesome. 

My wallet is already crying.

[verwackelt]

For a new Monochrom they have to improve the greyscale and gamma. Compared to analogue b&w the old monochrome was very muddy and flat.
PhaseOnes monochrome has the same downsides by the way…

[colonel]

26 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I suspect that another 24MP M Monochrom makes no sense. But a big jump to 41MP can worth it. I just can’t imagine how sharp such a Monochrom can be ! Can it be in GFX100 territory? 

An 18MP M Monochrom was able to rival 36MP sensor without AA filter at the time. 

Is it really possible to focus accurately at 41MP with the rangefinder ? 

 

Anyway a release of SL2 with new 41MP sensor followed by a M10-M with the 41MP without Bayer filter in Monochrom flavour can be awesome. 

My wallet is already crying.

Leica often uses differnet sensors for different cameras

It also can change manufacturer every generation

Even though the SL's sensor has angled micro lenses, the M's has to be even more so, so its always a different sensor design in any case

I actually am always excited to see what sensor Leica comes up with. I especially like when its from a smaller manufacturer ... I like to have something different.

Edited August 30, 2019 by colonel

[Fedro]

32 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I suspect that another 24MP M Monochrom makes no sense. But a big jump to 41MP can worth it. I just can’t imagine how sharp such a Monochrom can be ! Can it be in GFX100 territory? 

An 18MP M Monochrom was able to rival 36MP sensor without AA filter at the time. 

Is it really possible to focus accurately at 41MP with the rangefinder ? 

 

Anyway a release of SL2 with new 41MP sensor followed by a M10-M with the 41MP without Bayer filter in Monochrom flavour can be awesome. 

My wallet is already crying.

I totally agree. as to whether it will be possible to focus them properly, I imagine so, but it will take trial and error and probably higher shutter speeds than I am currently using ..

[nicci78]

@colonel Q, M10 and SL sensors are related. Tweaked for the specific needs of each camera. 

Basically, certainly same tech sensor, with faster readout for SL. And different micro-lenses and sensor stack filter. 

In its S1 with Leica lenses review, Jono Slack just explained that SL has a slightly thicker sensor filter than M10. Hence the slightly worst image quality performance in the corners with M lenses. 

SL has to be compatible with every Leica lenses ever existed. And SL is also a video camera. That's why it cannot be only custom made for M lenses only, such as the M10 can. 

NB : micro lenses are applied upon the sensor. It is a super thin lens molded into millions of microlenses. Then placed the stack filter on the top. 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by nicci78

[colonel]

8 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

@colonels Q, M10 and SL sensors are related. Tweaked for the specific needs of each camera. 

Basically, certainly same tech sensor, with faster readout for SL. And different micro-lenses and sensor stack filter. 

In its S1 with Leica lenses review, Jono Slack just explained that SL has a slightly thicker sensor filter than M10. Hence the slightly worst image quality performance in the corners with M lenses. 

SL has to be compatible with every Leica lenses ever existed. And SL is also a video camera. That's why it cannot be only custom made for M lenses only, such as the M10 can. 

 

 

In this generation yes, sourced from Panasonic fab I understand

But they can change any time they want, especially if M11 and SL2 are having new sensors

The SL might be marginally thicker then the M, but its much thinner then the S1, A7, EOS-R and Z6, thus the better acuity of the SL, especially paired with sharp glass

I have nothing against Panny sensors. They do a good job, and anyway, as I have always said, the sensor is not the most important component of the camera and merely has to be competant, not leading edge.

I am worried about Panasonic making a ballsup with its mirrorless FF entries. Too heavy, too expensive, too large and so so AF. Sales are low I understand. Even with the S1H, Panny will not be the King of video (Sony), merely the queen

I do hope Panny gets its next generation of mirrorless right and also introduces some lighter lenses. Selfishley I am most excited about its proposed lenses (as I am about Sigma and Leica), for my SL.

I want Panny to do well, but its a tough market. Sony is number 1, Nikon and Canon have their captive DSLR base (for now), Panasonic has to be nimble and innovative to keep going in a declining market. Perhaps it will just become a lens, sensor and video camera manufacturer .... thats ok too ....

Edited August 30, 2019 by colonel

[nicci78]

45 minutes ago, verwackelt said:

For a new Monochrom they have to improve the greyscale and gamma. Compared to analogue b&w the old monochrome was very muddy and flat.
PhaseOnes monochrome has the same downsides by the way…

Just use coloured filters and every Monochrom will get you attractive output without post processing.

And trust me, it is easier to screw in a yellow, orange, green or red filter. Than losing time in Lightroom or whatever software you are using to process the file to taste. 

Just choose the right colour filter according to the situation. No need to change more than once per day. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by nicci78

[SiggiGun]

Am 23.8.2019 um 16:27 schrieb nicci78:

Hi everybody, I got some info from well known french Leica seller. 

SL2 will not sports Q2’s 47MP sensor. But rather an in between pixel count, around 36 or 37.5MP. 

Because SL2 doesn’t need to crop heavily as the fixed lens Q2. You can change optics or just zoom in. 

The idea is to provide a very fast SL2 with just enough more pixels to make sense. But not to much to protect clean high and fast operation. 

Announcement in September 2019  

New body : slightly smaller but way better looking  

Did you get same information from your reseller ? 

 

 

I hope simply that the look will still be R3 style and not pinup girl 

Concerning the rest all what you say make sense from a technical point of view but marking is focused on simple figures : like "more is better" (a French phrase "qui peut de plus, peut le moins" 

[nicci78]

4 minutes ago, colonel said:

In this generation yes, sourced from Panasonic fab I understand

But they can change any time they want, especially if M11 and SL2 are having new sensors

The SL might be marginally thicker then the M, but its much thinner then the S1, A7, EOS-R and Z6, thus the better acuity of the SL, especially paired with sharp glass

I have nothing against Panny sensors. They do a good job, and anyway, as I have always said, the sensor is not the most important component of the camera and merely has to be competant, not leading edge.

 

There are no such thing as Panasonic sensors, since years. Every m4/3 Lumix G cameras sold for the last four years have Sony sensors. 

TowerJazz is NOT Panasonic ! https://towerjazz.com/about/corporate-overview/

TowerJazz has 7 factories : 2 in Israel and 2 in USA that are directly owned. Then 3 in Japan operated through a joint venture with Panasonic. It is a factory lease and IP licensing deal. 

Anyway Lumix S1 uses Sony 24MP sensor. S1R may be the only non Sony sensor used by a Panasonic camera.

Actually almost all manufacturers are using Sony sensor for most or all of their cameras. Even Canon (which makes its own APS-C and 24x36 imaging chip) are using 1" Sony sensors for its G series. So is Leica with its APS-C cameras since the X1. 

Whether we like it or not Sony Semiconductors rules the world of sensors from smartphone, CCTV, automotive to still & video cameras. They actually got 70% market share, almost a Monopoly.

Leica may try to resist the urge to buy only superior Sony sensors, but for how long ? It will have been easier and cheaper to buy the 33x44 100MP Sony sensor for the S3, than developing its own. It is not far fetch to think that Sony semi could have provided a 93MP 30x45 sensor for Leica. Now we will have a 64MP S3 competing with 100MP Fujifilm for 4 times the cost. 

 

[colonel]

10 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

There are no such thing as Panasonic sensors, since years. Every m4/3 Lumix G cameras sold for the last four years have Sony sensors. 

TowerJazz is NOT Panasonic ! https://towerjazz.com/about/corporate-overview/

Actually almost all manufacturers are using Sony sensor for most or all of their cameras. Even Canon (which makes its own APS-C and 24x36 imaging chip) are using 1" Sony sensors for its G series. So is Leica with its APS-C cameras since the X1. 

Whether we like it or not Sony Semiconductors rules the world of sensors from smartphone, CCTV, automotive to still & video cameras. They actually got 70% market share, almost a Monopoly.

Leica may try to resist the urge to buy only superior Sony sensors, but for how long ? 

I stand corrected, forgot about TowerJazz. Great name for a company BTW

Yes everyone uses 1" sony sensors (well except panasonic), but for FF, Canon, Leica and Panasonic use different ones

I prefer more mix in the market. I know Sony's are excellent, but others are too. Even small companies like CMOSIS make really exciting ones.

I guess we will have to agree to differ. If Leica uses a Sony sensor thats great, but for me I am equally happy if they don't

[nicci78]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-towerjazz-panasonic/israels-towerjazz-panasonic-in-joint-venture-for-japan-chip-plants-idUSBRE9BJ08E20131220

Actually Panasonic left the imaging sensor business 6 years ago. They sold the majority stakes of theirs three semiconductor factories in Japan to TowerJazz. 

Factories that are making a broader range of products than just imaging sensors.  

They promise to be TowerJazz customer for 5 years at least. 

 

You are right. Whichever sensors Leica will use, do not matter. If they deliver in image quality. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by nicci78

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[verwackelt]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb nicci78:

Just use coloured filters and every Monochrom will get you attractive output without post processing.

And trust me, it is easier to screw in a yellow, orange, green or red filter. Than losing time in Lightroom or whatever software you are using to process the file to taste. 

Just choose the right colour filter according to the situation. No need to change more than once per day. 

You are right for saturated and colored subjects. As a yellow filter for example can separate a blue sky from yellowish sand. 
But i saw a lot of shots from architeqture and other quite grey subjects without much colour. They were muddy and flat out of camera. 
A color filter has no influence there because there is no color to separate. A color filter reduces there just the amount of light like a grey filter will.
It is the profiling or read out of the monochrome sensors that has to be improved that they can compete with b&w film in greyscale and gamma.

[nicci78]

Monochrom sensors and black and white film  do not work the same way.

When I still got the M Monochrom, I was still shooting black and white film alongside  

The choice of coloured filter are different too. You cannot use them the same way with Monochrom than you do with silver halide films.

They will give you distinct look. You can try to replicate the film look with Monochrom, but it will be artificial. 

Just think that bayerless Monochrom look more like medium format C41 ready Ilford XP2 Super than any other traditional silver halide emulsions one. 

XP2 super has cleaner highlights but grainier shadows. 

Traditional Black and white films have grainier highlights but cleaner shadows.