rumors SL2 with 36MP sensor only

[ron777]

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40 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Hibernating all this time?

Not hibernating,  got tired of the repartee.  

From my perspective, a camera either performs the task I ask of it or not.  I don't fondle it, sleep with it, covet it or treat it like a sentient being, because it's just a tool.  If the Leica execs are following this forum/topic, I'd bet that they are laughing hilariously at all of the speculation, wishes and—according to the current hiphop vernacular—shade that is being tossed around.

Edited August 26, 2019 by ron777
grammar

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb ron777:

If the Leica execs are following this forum/topic, I'd bet that they are laughing hilariously at all of the speculation, wishes and—according to the current hiphop vernacular—shade that is being tossed around.

Sometimes some of the discussions are initiated on behalf of the Leica execs. 

[ron777]

6 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Sometimes some of the discussions are initiated on behalf of the Leica execs. 

Understood and appreciated.  Hopefully, they are paying attention.

[thighslapper]

9 minutes ago, ron777 said:

Understood and appreciated.  Hopefully, they are paying attention.

.... and no doubt realised many years ago they are never going to please everyone so they might as well please themselves and produce the camera that conforms to their usual philosophy .....

simplicity of design and function, high quality materials and results pitched at a level that sane normal photographers need rather than want. 

Unfortunately most of current consumer society is driven by want rather than need, so they will be firmly stuck in the niche market they prefer and will get the usual brickbats from the rest of the photographic community.....

oh ..... and I'll probably end up buying one, whatever. Someones got to support the good guys, even if they are sometimes rather deluded in their outlook (mandatory LENR)

Edited August 26, 2019 by thighslapper

[ron777]

Well, unless they come up with something spectacular, I won’t be tempted.

[caissa]

Just made a visit to the Q2 part. I could not find a lot of complaining about noise of the sensor over there. I found a lot of uncomplicated activity, many many pictures. The users are not afraid to show that they are no artists, they simply add their photos and are encouraged by others. I would like to have more of this here ...

And so I would really like to have this Q2 sensor for the SL2 .

[Guest BlackBarn]

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When the eye focuses on a single area  it operates at a camera equivalent of around 5-15MPx. If it were possible for the human eye to take in the whole visual plain - the sum of recording this continual refocusing would be a camera equivalent to around 500 - 600MPx.

Those who want to produce photos to replicate what their natural eye see when they focus on single visual area, 47MPx would work against them. Those who find it interesting or necessary to enhance  the experience of the human eye then moving up the MPx league is the way to go. However, it’s in the interest of the marketing bods to make photographers ‘kit centric’ like upping the MPx , encouraging the turning of the  human eye into the robotic eye.

An SL2 with what Leica considers to be an improved design and functionality would be interesting and hopefully their bias  towards the human eye is still on their radar.

Regardless, accepting that the evolution of the human eye has some way to go before it reaches 24MPx, I’m very happy to know my SL with its Leica glass, minimalist design and build quality is good for another 10+ years. 

[bags27]

1 hour ago, caissa said:

Just made a visit to the Q2 part. I could not find a lot of complaining about noise of the sensor over there. I found a lot of uncomplicated activity, many many pictures. The users are not afraid to show that they are no artists, they simply add their photos and are encouraged by others. I would like to have more of this here ...

And so I would really like to have this Q2 sensor for the SL2 .

Even truer for the film thread. maybe you're using the wrong technology.... 😀

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb ron777:

Well, unless they come up with something spectacular, I won’t be tempted.

Of course, not, no one will. But isn’t it great that the SL2 will likely be an amazing camera? Look at it this way, this will just force Panasonic to use better sensors, faster AF, smaller bodies in the future to try to lure back customers. Those who benefit are us, the L-mount users. To paraphrase Gordon Gekko, again ‘Competition clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Competition in all of its forms has marked the upward surge of mankind. And competition will not only save Leica, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the...” Well, let’s not go there. 😁

[Chaemono]

Am 25.8.2019 um 14:42 schrieb caissa:

The question is, is the AF software part of chip prod or does it belong to camera prod. ?

It looks to me that Sony’s PDAF technology is grouped under Sony Semiconductor Solutions. This is from the Sony Semicon website: Image Sensor for Camera->Technology->PDAF 😀

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/technology/pdaf.html

[colonel]

I agree with views expressed above that many comments are here are mostly off track and often futile

I am reminded of many forthcoming Leica releases where some folk start to express a wish for Leica to produce what the rest of the market is producing

The SL was attactive due to its design, workflow, speed, quality and lenses. For sure it doesn't fit into many wish lists, including compactness, IBIS, etc. Perhaps some folk would have liked for random example, IBIS and not GPS, but for people like me that always switch off IBIS (as it detracts from sharpness - much prefer to raise speed and/or ISO) that is a non-issue. I am looking for radical updates in any event, e.g. a 5G sim, so I can auto upload DNG files ready for editing in real time, providing backup and instant editing when I get back to my desk.

Only Leica knows how much it sold. As usual Leica will produce something distinct and different from most peoples spec list for the A7 iv. 

IMHO, the SL is the most enjoyable FF mirrorless I have used. I pick it up when I was relegating my other systems to the shelf. Perhaps a poor reason to buy a camera, but the main one for me. Perhaps others are turned on by different cameras. How many professionals like the SL ? Leica will weigh up all these things and, I am sure, come back with what it thinks of as the best solution. Unlike the Q, which was more of a hobby and an unexpected hit, the SL is Leica's only FF mirrorless system and is targetted for well healed enthusiastcs and professionals who like something different and its awesome lens technology. 

As thighslapper says, I will also probably end up buying one ....

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by colonel

[thighslapper]

28 minutes ago, colonel said:

I am looking for radical updates in any event, e.g. a 5G sim, so I can auto upload DNG files ready for editing in real time, providing backup and instant editing when I get back to my desk.

To be honest the SD card should only be as a back-up security. All images should sync in the background with whatever mobile/home device that you have specified. I presume the only restriction doing this currently is the awful effects on battery life..... any camera with WiFi constantly active dies very rapidly in my experience.

ps. I presume you have never tried IBIS on the S1R or S1 ...... handheld with the 75/2 at 1/10 sec is indistinguishable from on a tripod. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by thighslapper

[colonel]

10 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

To be honest the SD card should only be as a back-up security. All images should sync in the background with whatever mobile/home device that you have specified. I presume the only restriction doing this currently is the awful effects on battery life..... any camera with WiFi constantly active dies very rapidly in my experience.

ps. I presume you have never tried IBIS on the S1R or S1 ...... handheld with the 75/2 at 1/10 sec is indistinguishable from on a tripod. 

The Panasonic S1/R are the only mirrorless I havent used. I should borrow one for a few weeks to get a feel ...

[mmradman]

1 hour ago, colonel said:

The Panasonic S1/R are the only mirrorless I havent used. I should borrow one for a few weeks to get a feel ...

Are you saying you tried full frame IBIS enabled Sony, Canon & Nikon mirrorless (except maybe not Canon) and you find IBIS does not provide satisfactory sharp images handheld? 

[colonel]

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

Are you saying you tried full frame IBIS enabled Sony, Canon & Nikon mirrorless (except maybe not Canon) and you find IBIS does not provide satisfactory sharp images handheld? 

I have used all of those, and also Olympus and Panasonic

All IBIS systems work great by minimising camera shake when your are handheld.  In some cases the image produced can be pitch sharp. However to obtain the higherst probability of the sharpest picture, particularly in studio or controlled environments, image stabilisation should be switched off.

1. Image stabilization, by its very nature, uses motion along one axis to counter motion in the opposite axis, often creating varying degrees of image degradation of its own.

2. Why do all image stabilisation systems require to be switch off when on a tripod ? because the system is anticipating micro-shakes, and when there are actually none, it may introduce false micro-shakes into the picture. By definition, if you are holding your camera in a very steady manner, IS may introduce shake.

3. Over a certain shutter speed it is certainly redundant, and is an "extra" system that might go wrong which should therefore be switched off.

4. Certain camera usages, for example panning, are problematic for most image stabilisation system.

5. introduction of vignetting. To minimize blur from hand movements of the camera, the image stabilizer moves either the camera sensor or some of the elements within the lens to compensate. If you think of an egg and spoon race with the egg as your subject and your body as the image stabilizer you get the drift. Your body is moving constantly to keep the egg in position. The image stabilizer is doing the same thing to keep the subject centered. Like your body, though, the stabilizer is shifting the sensor or lenses all over the place to do this (this is a further problem if you are using housings and/or conversion lenses), as the image stabilizer moves the sensor or lenses ‘off centre’, it can photograph include edges of the lens not normally included normally.

6. "unsettled" stabilisation systems. Many systems can take a fraction of a second, or more then a second, to switch on properly. In this time the image is erratically stabilised. So switch on and go fast is an issue for most systems, and certainly for street photography when you often have a very small time to react. It doesnt help keeping the camera switched on, as when it goes to sleep it still has to restart the stabilisation system.

7. IS systems work at an operation frequency. Often this is 500 or 1000hertz. Therefore at shutter speeds which are the same, they can introduce artefacts inot the image. More argument for switching the system off at higher shutter speeds.

8. In terms of "in lens" stabilisation, there are photographers who rank "Non-IS" lens higher then "IS" as the floating element can never be positioned as accurately as a fixed element. This is not an argument against in camera IS, but is interesting nonetheless

More reading is available on the internet

I am not dumping on a great technological invention, which sometimes, particularly for run and gun, its likely to improve images. Its just important to know its limitations, and that it is not a silver bullet (you would be amazed how many people don't realise it doesnt help if your subject is moving!).

I would rather have this functionality then not (as a checklist item), but have not missed it for my CL or SL. In addition, photography technique to stand still, and grip the camera properly, when taking a picture, can never be overstated. ...

Edited August 27, 2019 by colonel

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

To be honest the SD card should only be as a back-up security. All images should sync in the background with whatever mobile/home device that you have specified. I presume the only restriction doing this currently is the awful effects on battery life..... any camera with WiFi constantly active dies very rapidly in my experience.

ps. I presume you have never tried IBIS on the S1R or S1 ...... handheld with the 75/2 at 1/10 sec is indistinguishable from on a tripod. 

Have you tried photographing small children?

I don't have a problem with IBIS or OIS, but it is not as valuable for what I like shooting as it clearly is for others. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[mmradman]

20 minutes ago, colonel said:

I have used all of those, and also Olympus and Panasonic

All IBIS systems work great by minimising camera shake when your are handheld.  In some cases the image produced can be pitch sharp. However to obtain the higherst probability of the sharpest picture, particularly in studio or controlled environments, image stabilisation should be switched off.

1. Image stabilization, by its very nature, uses motion along one axis to counter motion in the opposite axis, often creating varying degrees of image degradation of its own.

2. Why do all image stabilisation systems require to be switch off when on a tripod ? because the system is anticipating micro-shakes, and when there are actually none, it may introduce false micro-shakes into the picture. By definition, if you are holding your camera in a very steady manner, IS may introduce shake.

3. Over a certain shutter speed it is certainly redundant, and is an "extra" system that might go wrong which should therefore be switched off.

4. Certain camera usages, for example panning, are problematic for most image stabilisation system.

5. introduction of vignetting. To minimize blur from hand movements of the camera, the image stabilizer moves either the camera sensor or some of the elements within the lens to compensate. If you think of an egg and spoon race with the egg as your subject and your body as the image stabilizer you get the drift. Your body is moving constantly to keep the egg in position. The image stabilizer is doing the same thing to keep the subject centered. Like your body, though, the stabilizer is shifting the sensor or lenses all over the place to do this (this is a further problem if you are using housings and/or conversion lenses), as the image stabilizer moves the sensor or lenses ‘off centre’, it can photograph include edges of the lens not normally included normally.

6. "unsettled" stabilisation systems. Many systems can take a fraction of a second, or more then a second, to switch on properly. In this time the image is erratically stabilised. So switch on and go fast is an issue for most systems, and certainly for street photography when you often have a very small time to react. It doesnt help keeping the camera switched on, as when it goes to sleep it still has to restart the stabilisation system.

7. IS systems work at an operation frequency. Often this is 500 or 1000hertz. Therefore at shutter speeds which are the same, they can introduce artefacts inot the image. More argument for switching the system off at higher shutter speeds.

8. In terms of "in lens" stabilisation, there are photographers who rank "Non-IS" lens higher then "IS" as the floating element can never be positioned as accurately as a fixed element. This is not an argument against in camera IS, but is interesting nonetheless

More reading is available on the internet

I am not dumping on a great technological invention, which sometimes, particularly for run and gun, its likely to improve images. Its just important to know its limitations, and that it is not a silver bullet (you would be amazed how many people don't realise it doesnt help if your subject is moving!).

I would rather have this functionality then not (as a checklist item), but have not missed it for my CL or SL. In addition, photography technique to stand still, and grip the camera properly, when taking a picture, can never be overstated. ...

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

I am lately using Z7 with IBIS for handled shooting and fully aware of tripod use limitations ever since first introduction back in the film era.  I find IBIS excellent feature where photographer induced shake can be in main compensate , of course only remedy for the freezing subject motion is correct exposure as combination of shutter speed/ISO/aperture or using flash.

Whether SL2 has IBIS or not is (was) for Leica to decide, most probably already implemented as it is hardware feature.  Current crop of ILC of all sensor formats from Micro 4/3 to Medium seem to be fitted with IBIS and it is on many potential buyer wish list.

[oka]

36mpx is great (with good DR).

Electronics are something where Leica lags behind the competition and my only wish that they make SL2 much faster than SL (especially when using 1=2 SD backup mode).

[hillavoider]

SL2 has to have ibis or its a dead ibis 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[sillbeers15]

I buy Leica camera because I’m a big fan of Leica glasses. When the L mount alliance was announced, I was honestly not excited about Sigma and Panasonic glass only hoping to pick up an exceptionally good design on the occasion that one appears. The other way round interest me more now that the Pana S1R can take on Leica SL glasses perfectly.

If it were true that Leica chose so to offer the SL2 with 36MP sensor with PDAF and better dynamic range, I would honestly be thrilled. With an additional half or less spending to a Leica SL2, I can pick up a S1R to compliment the SL2 whenever I need to use wireless flash for portrait shooting. This would be a perfect world in my context.

I really hope that Leica will not disappoint us with the SL2. But what the hell, S1R is available as the back up plan for me.